Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 10 to 18 of 33

Thread: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

  1. #10
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,968

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    ODH it does add up that in this country when the government steps in the cost soars its just the way it is. And sure countries with tiny populations have been able to have some success with this. Then again some havent france, spain and greece arent doing so well. If we added the cost of universal health care to our already unsastanable spending we would be Greece in no time. The US would be fine if we could eliminate spending. We would also be healthier if the people of our nation did not eat a meal that could feed three people everytime we sit down.
    You state speculation as fact. My understanding is that Medicaid has much lower overhead than any private company, a much higher percentage of the dollars go towards actual healthcare. Also, is the health care cost at VA hospitial (Government run) much higher than private hospitals? Same question can be asked about City run hospitals? I don't know the answer but I have the feeling the public hopsital are not more wastefull than private ones.

    You also pick and choose to use countries in bad financial states as rock solid evidence against programs you dislike, i.e. Country X is in bad financial shape and has Socialized medicine, therefore socialized medicine cause the problem and if the US has the same program we would be in just as much as a mess. Whatever the take on the current debt load of the US, we are not like Greece and are in no danger of being like Greece. The two country's economies are so vastly different. Greece is a poor country that overspent while the US is still by far the richest nation on earth with the soundest credit in the world and only is lacking the political will to resolve its current situation.
    Last edited by ODH; 02-15-2012 at 03:44 PM.

  2. #11
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,968

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Cutter View Post
    Government involvement in health care is what has caused the sky rocketing costs, fraud, abuse, etc. Look at all the new health care buildings springing up everywhere. For you old enough to remember the 70's and 80's, none of this existed, and people still were being taken care of. Why do you think doctors and hospitals can now afford to build such fabulous complex's? The answer is because someone else is paying for it, namely US taxpayers because of government involvement in health care insurance. If individuals were responsible for paying for their own bills, #1 the costs would not be nearly as high and #2 many unnecessary procedures would not be occurring.

    Here's 1 example of health insurance stupidity, waste, fraud, and abuse. I needed an MRI on my neck but the insurance company won't let me get an MRI unless I have a regular x ray first even though every doctor knows the regular x ray is a total waste of time. If I'm paying the bill I'm probably not having any x rays at all, but I'm definitely not paying $300 for an x ray I definitly don't need. Also, if I'm paying out of my pocket an MRI probably doesn't cost $1,300 because no one would get one and the MRI company would go out of business. DC
    Healthcare was cheaper in the 70's and 80's because there was not as much technology. No one got MRI's is the 70s and 80s because they did not exist. Technology has made healthcare better but it a reasonable question whether it is always worth the money.

    As far as getting an X-ray before an MRI, I think your numbers are a bit off on the X-ray. I think I paid $150 for my last X-Ray. Either way, some actuary at an insurance company has calculated that it is cheaper to make people get an X-ray before an MRI because enough people won't get the expensive MRI because of the extra hassle or the X-Ray will be effective enough that the MRI is not needed.

  3. #12
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Littleton, CO
    Posts
    4,935

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    You state speculation as fact. My understanding is that Medicaid has much lower overhead than any private company, a much higher percentage of the dollars go towards actual healthcare. Also, is the health care cost at VA hospitial (Government run) much higher than private hospitals? Same question can be asked about City run hospitals? I don't know the answer but I have the feeling the public hopsital are not more wastefull than private ones.

    You also pick and choose to use countries in bad financial states as rock solid evidence against programs you dislike, i.e. Country X is in bad financial shape and has Socialized medicine, therefore socialized medicine cause the problem and if the US has the same program we would be in just as much as a mess. Whatever the take on the current debt load of the US, we are not like Greece and are in no danger of being like Greece. The two country's economies are so vastly different. Greece is a poor country that overspent while the US is still by far the richest nation on earth with the soundest credit in the world and only is lacking the political will to resolve its current situation.
    Medicaid is one of the single largest drivers of our deficit and it is an unfunded liability, its cost are far beyond what the initial cost figures. I dont know about the cost of care at the VA but when I was in the military I didnt think the care was good, you dont get the best doctors. I know that the Childrens hospital is a private for profit and they give a lot of care for next to nothing.

    You say I pick and choose countries but then you chose to focus on greece and leave out france and spain which I mentioned. Also I dont know why greece being a small country matters when you cited nations which have a smaller populations than at least 5 states. We could end up right where greece is and spain if we continue to try and be socialist. We know socialism doesnt work.

  4. #13
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,968

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    My Comments:
    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Medicaid is one of the single largest drivers of our deficit and it is an unfunded liability, its cost are far beyond what the initial cost figures.
    This does not mean that the government is not more efficient at administrating health care than the provate sector. I don't know if it is, but I am not prepare to accept blanket statements that everything is 10x more expensive when the government takes over.

    I dont know about the cost of care at the VA but when I was in the military I didnt think the care was good, you dont get the best doctors.
    Seems like a good model to me: If you want low cost health care go to the government funded hospital (not getting the best doctors should be saving money). If you want the best, be prepare to pay more.

    I know that the Childrens hospital is a private for profit and they give a lot of care for next to nothing. I don't see how this relates. Are you implying that the are more efficient becasue they can give some care away?

    You say I pick and choose countries but then you chose to focus on greece and leave out france and spain which I mentioned. Also I dont know why greece being a small country matters when you cited nations which have a smaller populations than at least 5 states.
    Small country does not matter it is the overall robustness of the economy that does. The US still has the biggest economy, soundest credit etc.
    We could end up right where greece is and spain if we continue to try and be socialist. We know socialism doesnt work.
    Another blanket statement that is meaningless. Every modern industrialized society is socialist to some extent. There are socialist countries with weak economies that are going bankrupt and there are socialist countries with strong economies that are doing well. Uncontrolled capitalism in the banking sector has bankrupted one country (Iceland) and crippled another (Ireland). I would never say we know capitalism does not work.

  5. #14

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    This is not a shot or an insult to anyone. It is merely my daily observation.

    I am not very old (40), but I can still remember when the number of Americans with actual self pride outnumbered the ones without it. When times got rough, it used to be a matter of pride to pull up your boot straps and work your butt off to get out of whatever hole you found yourself in. When it was all over, people used to glow when they spoke of how hard they worked to get where they are. Families and friends helped each other out and didn't think twice about doing it. I remember this because my family went through it when my dad would get laid off or his union would go on strike. He would always tell us kids, though, that you can do anything if you put your mind to it. I also remember that the people who sat back and bitched and moaned and asked for handouts were looked at as lazy.

    All of that has changed in my short lifetime. I'm sure the change started before I was born, but now it has over taken the country. Those wanting government handouts far out number those who want to be left alone to do for themselves. Now, those claiming that the government should provide them with things, like healthcare, aren't looked at as lazy. They are idolized by the other millions who also want handouts. It is no longer the least bit shameful to say you can't provide for yourself and your family. In fact, those who do work hard, provide for their family and become successful are now the ones looked at in shame. Instead of the majority of Americans wanting to succeed for themselves, the majority now just wants to take from those who have succeeded.

    I used to be angry about this. That passed. Then I was disgusted. That passed. Now I just feel sorry for people. I can't help but shake my head and wonder if these people were ever told that they could succeed if they put their mind to it. The bad thing for me is that the majority of people who want to rely on the government is going to end up taking away my freedoms. I don't like being told what and how to do things by people who have never met me and don't know what's best for me and my family. But, this is the sad reality of America. We can already just look at Greece to know that this stuff doesn't work, but people won't do it. It is very sad. I'm just glad my kids are grown and still do believe that they can do whatever they put their minds to. I just hope government allows them to do it.

    Can you actually believe that a once highly regarded DEMOCRAT was the one who said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Poor JFK wouldn't stand a chance in this America.
    Last edited by quinn14; 02-18-2012 at 05:53 PM.

  6. #15

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    One issue with comparing police and fire to universal health care is that there is no universal police or fire, all of the fire depts and police depts are run by local government and I dont believe that there is a requirement in constitution that they do so. There is however in the constitution the right for the federal government to have a military and it is their job to do so, if you read the federalist papers it was always the intent of the federal government to have a standing army.

    I did not make a constitutional argument for federal universal healthcare, just a analogous argument that, like fire, police, and defense; we as a community should bind together to have common coverage, since these protect people from things that generally afflict people at random.


    As for founding fathers, you would do well to remember that the federalist papers were a propaganda piece written by the three who were most in favor of strong and active
    central government. Is that what you want? If you skip the "monarchical" Fed papers and go to the Constitution: "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare" could easily translate into a an army and a universal health system.

    Secondly I dont think that the government can adequately run health care, nothing the government runs, runs well and it always costs 10x more than it would if the private sector ran it. We know that the costs are high and we can look to other nations with universal health care and see that it is a large factor in causing nations to go bankrupt. Along with all of the other socialist tendencies. Our private system is doing much worse than many so called socialized systems. There is a great Frontline from a couple years ago that would shock many people.

    I have many friends that do not use their private insurance and opt for their VA care because they like it it better. Considering how VA makes do despite paying much less to its doctors than they can earn in Private, that isn't a bad system. They have incidentally been on the cutting edge of some things that private companies have failed with such as EMR, and the pioneering of the dicom platform for imaging. VA is not perfect, but it and the national system on Reservations have actually been on the frontline for institutional efficiency because we keep cutting their budgets.


    Now if a state wanted to have some type of universal state health care system that's fine because it would go to a vote of the people of that state to decide.
    Agreed, universal does not necessarily mean federal.

  7. #16

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    ODH it does add up that in this country when the government steps in the cost soars its just the way it is. And sure countries with tiny populations have been able to have some success with this. Then again some havent france, spain and greece arent doing so well. If we added the cost of universal health care to our already unsastanable spending we would be Greece in no time. The US would be fine if we could eliminate spending. We would also be healthier if the people of our nation did not eat a meal that could feed three people everytime we sit down.
    We already over spend for poor results compared to "non private systems." The world wide data would indicate that private is the costly route. This does not have to mean medicaid for everyone- it could simply mean price controls enforced on doctors and hospitals, combined with better regulation. Regulation is not always bad for business, sometimes (especially in the medical field, regulation can increase efficiency and profits.

  8. #17

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Cutter View Post
    Government involvement in health care is what has caused the sky rocketing costs, fraud, abuse, etc. Look at all the new health care buildings springing up everywhere. For you old enough to remember the 70's and 80's, none of this existed, and people still were being taken care of. Why do you think doctors and hospitals can now afford to build such fabulous complex's? The answer is because someone else is paying for it, namely US taxpayers because of government involvement in health care insurance. If individuals were responsible for paying for their own bills, #1 the costs would not be nearly as high and #2 many unnecessary procedures would not be occurring.

    Here's 1 example of health insurance stupidity, waste, fraud, and abuse. I needed an MRI on my neck but the insurance company won't let me get an MRI unless I have a regular x ray first even though every doctor knows the regular x ray is a total waste of time. If I'm paying the bill I'm probably not having any x rays at all, but I'm definitely not paying $300 for an x ray I definitly don't need. Also, if I'm paying out of my pocket an MRI probably doesn't cost $1,300 because no one would get one and the MRI company would go out of business. DC
    Government started getting involved in the 70s to control costs. That is when a Republican/Conservative Richard Nixon attempted to push federal universal healthcare to cut costs- so much for his "New American Revolution" social program. I miss Nixon.

    If anything, it was abundance of private insurance from union contracts in the 50s and 60s that caused skyrocketing costs. Private for profit doctors and organizations took massive advantage of the system and drove the costs up- combined with dwindling regulation and ambulance chasing lawyers, as well as new technology and pharmaceuticals. Government involvement is an effect of price inflation, not a cause.
    Last edited by NYGriffin; 02-21-2012 at 12:48 PM.

  9. #18

    Default Re: A Simple Defense of Universal Healthcare

    I will say this... Ugly was willing take up the point of my original post. Does healthcare fall into a similar category as defense, police and fire?
    She had Constitutional qualms about it, but admitted it could be done on the state level, (which is what I would like to see.)
    So for giggles, maybe we could argue the opposite- who is in favor of privatizing fire, police and defense coverage?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •