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Thread: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

  1. #19

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Ugly- religious such as Quakers, Mennonites, Amish are just a few of the conscientious objectors who are often exempt from direct military service, but required to pay the tax, and in some cases provide support services outside of military action.

    Frankly, I think Flogging hit a very good analogy there- the government does not mandate a priest or layman to use contraception, but is asking to support other people's choices on the matter. Just like a conscientous objector is never required to kill, but is required to support the broad general consensus concerning the issue.

  2. #20
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYGriffin View Post
    Ugly- religious such as Quakers, Mennonites, Amish are just a few of the conscientious objectors who are often exempt from direct military service, but required to pay the tax, and in some cases provide support services outside of military action.

    Frankly, I think Flogging hit a very good analogy there- the government does not mandate a priest or layman to use contraception, but is asking to support other people's choices on the matter. Just like a conscientious objector is never required to kill, but is required to support the broad general consensus concerning the issue.
    Everyone is exempt from military service considering that we have an all volunteer military. Those groups arent anti military as far as I know even though they might be against joining the service themselves. I am sure those folks are for a military that protects them and their right to practice their faith.

    Beyond that if you think that all entities who receive government funding are subject to the law, the military skirts nearly every discrimination law around. They discriminate against everyone in some form or fashion. Also like I said religious people pay for public schooling which they disagree with. That isnt the issue so much, we all have issues with where tax dollars are spent. The issue is do you force an institution that does greater good to break its faith because it receives tax dollars. Do you cause the closing of orphanages and homeless shelters because of government regulation. Should the government have this power to dictate to religious entities that they will break their faith, I say NO.

  3. #21

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Everyone is exempt from military service considering that we have an all volunteer military. Those groups arent anti military as far as I know even though they might be against joining the service themselves. I am sure those folks are for a military that protects them and their right to practice their faith.
    At least Quakers are anti-violence to the point where many consider contributing to the funding of the military to be against their faith. Lots of quakers refuse to pay the portion of their income taxes that fund the military and go to jail as a result, others choose to lower their income to the point where they don't pay federal taxes.
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  4. #22
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    At least Quakers are anti-violence to the point where many consider contributing to the funding of the military to be against their faith. Lots of quakers refuse to pay the portion of their income taxes that fund the military and go to jail as a result, others choose to lower their income to the point where they don't pay federal taxes.
    That is thier right, good for them they didnt need the government to step in and make a law so they could stand on their principles. If they oppose it that much they should do wha they need to do.

    Do you not agree that all of us has an issue with the way our tax dollars are spent.

  5. #23

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    That is thier right, good for them they didnt need the government to step in and make a law so they could stand on their principles. If they oppose it that much they should do wha they need to do.
    So then shouldn't the catholics do the same thing and stand on their principles and accept whatever penalties come with it?
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  6. #24

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly View Post
    everyone is exempt from military service considering that we have an all volunteer military.
    we still have the legal ability to conscript if that is seen as necessary. Men are still required to enroll in the process that facilitates that. It is is called selective service. Ironically, even legal and illegal immigrants are required to register for the draft. It is one more thing illegals can be charged with if found.
    those groups arent anti military as far as i know even though they might be against joining the service themselves. I am sure those folks are for a military that protects them and their right to practice their faith. i am not sure what you mean by "pro" or "anti-military" in this context. They are anti war as a breach of their understanding of the 5/6 commandment. I would guess that they hate the sin, but love the sinner.

    beyond that if you think that all entities who receive government funding are subject to the law, the military skirts nearly every discrimination law around.
    They discriminate against everyone in some form or fashion. Also like i said religious people pay for public schooling which they disagree with. That isnt the issue so much, we all have issues with where tax dollars are spent. The issue is do you force an institution that does greater good to break its faith because it receives tax dollars. if the choice is between a corporate institution's rights and that of individuals, i usually side with individuals.
    do you cause the closing of orphanages and homeless shelters because of government regulation. They would not close because of regulation, they have been regulated for a long time. If they closed over this issue it would be because the leaders of this corporate institution chose to make a political point by closing the institution and ending all the good work being done in those walls by catholic and non catholic individuals. Should the government have this power to dictate to religious entities that they will break their faith, i say no.i think the world is made up of more shades than just black and white. They are not asking for the priests and nuns or anyone else to use the contraception, a sin according to the catholic church. They are asking for communal support of a commonly used health aid for the thousands of catholic and non catholic individuals who work for them, not necassarily pray with them.


    lets ask another question. If the church is so concerned about small contributions it may be asked to give as members of a broader american community:
    Why no catholic outrage over the fact that under american law they are a 501(c) 3 corporation that exempts them from the corporate tax, but requires them to pay other business taxes on income outside of direct church operation and of course the personal income tax is still required by priests and
    all employees of the church itself. We all know that among the many dollars spent by federal and state governments, this money supports what the catholic church would consider "sin and evil."
    why no outrage? Simple- this is a political grandstand by some members of the leadership of this more and more politically minded 501(c)3 non-profit corporation.
    its all about spin and the politics of division, it has nothing to do with legitimate issues of freedom.
    nyg

  7. #25

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Griffin, you mentioned Margret Sanger when you said this: These women's rights (Margaret Sanger and many others) advocates argued the thing that most restricted women's freedom was lack of access to biological knowledge and common contraceptive technology.

    I am assuming that you agree with her. Hillary Clinton also said she was a great woman. Do you really know about her? Do you know that the reason she started Planned Parenthood was to wipe out the black race and stop the multiplication of the unfit? Here is a link followed by some quotes from it. Check it out for yourself.

    The Negro Project and Margaret Sanger

    Sanger's early writings clearly reflected Malthus' influence. She writes:
    Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease. Those vast, complex, interrelated organizations aiming to control and to diminish the spread of misery and destitution and all the menacing evils that spring out of this sinisterly fertile soil, are the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents.Here is another "great" quote from her:

    In another passage, she decries the burden of “human waste” on society:
    It [charity] encourages the healthier and more normal sections of the world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world, it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant [emphasis added].

    This is the person you choose to use in a debate about freedom?I hope you don't agree that the weak and blacks should just be killed. Sanger does.

  8. #26

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    BTW- I don't remember hearing or reading about women's outcry that they can't afford contraception before the administration told us it was a problem. They created this themselves and some are falling for it. Just listening to some idiot on the radio a few minutes ago solidified the stupidity of many people. This girl was saying that finally women "CAN HAVE ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL" and we need to thank Obama for it.

    Since when have women not had access to birth control? Why are they not talking about the abortion and sterilization parts that will also be mandated? Why did Steponopoulus ask about outlawing contraception weeks ago in a debate? It is all a plan by the white house to demonize republicans as wanting to outlaw something that no one wants to outlaw. It's a lie and it's obvious. I truly hope people will wake up one day because this administration is going to ruin us if not. Oh, and check out the NY Times article about well dressed people needing to eat out of garbage cans in Greece. This is headed our way if we keep allowing it. Socialism has never and will never work.

  9. #27

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    BTW- I don't remember hearing or reading about women's outcry that they can't afford contraception before the administration told us it was a problem.
    I don't remember hearing or reading about catholic's outcry that their insurance must cover birth control in 20-something states that currently require it to before now either...
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

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