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Thread: Team vs individual philosiphy

  1. #19
    Olympic Champ RYou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Team is for work ethic in the wrestling room and spirit in a close dual meet or team tourney, otherwise you're on your own.

    Spider, you made the right call. I hate it when one coach juggles the lineup to avoid a top kid, especially between two equally talented wrestlers.
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  2. #20

    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    I hate it when one coach juggles the lineup to avoid a top kid, especially between two equally talented wrestlers.
    Totally agree.

    There was a move that I did agree with. Dustin Schlatter moved up 2 weight classes to wrestle Mike Miller (3x state champ) their senior year. Mike was just to big for Dustin and wore him down by the third period. It also happened their junior year with Dustin getting the best of Mike.

  3. #21
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger84 View Post
    I guess I don't see why it's a fine line to walk. At least relative to other sports. Wrestling is the one sport you can tell your kid, go out there, worry about yourself and wrestle for yourself and the team will benefit. In basketball, doing that may lead to a PG who scores too much and doesn't pass, in football it may result in a QB wanting to throw it in for a TD. IN wrestling what? A guy goes out there, even if he hates his teammates, and he sticks his kid and it help's the team.


    My coach always had a pretty clear cut rule about team vs individual. Do what's best for you as an individual, work to make yourself the best and it'll only help the team.

    The only time this comes into question is when you're talking about moving around weights, but again, that can be pretty easily handled.

    You can't challenge unless the guy holding the spot loses a match. Beyond that, if you win, it's yours. You can move around for individual, but for a team, it's really that simple.
    Well it is a fine line. When you have kids that are good and they know it sometimes they want to do what is best for them or what is easiest. I have had to convince kids to cut to a weight or move up because it was best for the team and it gave us the best chance to win. It did not hurt the kids chances but they feel if they are good they can do what they want. If you have ever coached you would know that a kid who hates his team but wins isn't good for the team. More than likely he isn't a good workout partner and is an ass to the coaches. It is easy to sit back on the sidelines and think it isn't a fine line a coach walks.

    Tell what do you do if you have your best kid injured 2nd week of the season and another kid wrestles all year long and deserves to wrestle because he has put in the time and effort. Then your star becomes available the week before your state qualifying event. Do you sit the star who clearly has a better chance to win or let the kid who has been devoted to the team and wrestled all year go and finish the season?

    Also why should you only be aloud to challenge if the guy loses? I think you should be able to challenge every week if you think you can win. That creates good competition and work ethic in the room that makes the team better.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Tell what do you do if you have your best kid injured 2nd week of the season and another kid wrestles all year long and deserves to wrestle because he has put in the time and effort. Then your star becomes available the week before your state qualifying event. Do you sit the star who clearly has a better chance to win or let the kid who has been devoted to the team and wrestled all year go and finish the season?
    IMO you have to heave a wrestle off and determine who goes. It wasn't wrestler a's fault he became injured.

    Also why should you only be aloud to challenge if the guy loses? I think you should be able to challenge every week if you think you can win. That creates good competition and work ethic in the room that makes the team better.
    The way it was at my high school, best two out of three and sometimes three out of five and unless it was extreemly close, you could only challange if wrestler "a" lost.

  5. #23
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Tell what do you do if you have your best kid injured 2nd week of the season and another kid wrestles all year long and deserves to wrestle because he has put in the time and effort. Then your star becomes available the week before your state qualifying event. Do you sit the star who clearly has a better chance to win or let the kid who has been devoted to the team and wrestled all year go and finish the season?.
    The star didn't choose to be injured. If he came to practices and matches, even as a spectator, and did what he could to keep in shape and watch his weight, he deserves to wrestle off as soon as he is ready. The kid who filled in had a great opportunity, but didn't earn the right to keep the injured kid out of the post-season. Added as an edit: this isn't a team based decision, it's based on what's fair to the injured kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Also why should you only be aloud to challenge if the guy loses? I think you should be able to challenge every week if you think you can win. That creates good competition and work ethic in the room that makes the team better.
    I agree - that makes no sense. A second stringer shouldn't be rooting for his guy to lose so he can wrestle off, and the right to wrestle off shouldn't depend on the quality of last week's opponent.
    Last edited by Spider; 08-12-2008 at 10:53 AM.
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  6. #24

    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Many years ago, our last dual meet was for the league championship. Both teams had their best guy at 145, and we knew that if we bumped our guy away from theirs, we would trade wins and we would most likely win the dual. As an assisitant coach, I said that our guy deserves a chance to beat their guy - it was a once in a lifetime match-up and might not happen again until States, if then. The other assistant wanted to bump away to ensure the team win. My argument was that sometimes the individual is more important than the team, and this was one of those times. The head coach went with my suggestion, and our kid lost, but it was an unbelievable match, and he never would have known how he would have done if we bumped him away. Even though we lost the dual, I still think my choice was the right one at the time.

    Whenever I see the other assistant coach, we still argue about it .
    Future FIL,
    I hate to say it but I disagree with that move. First and foremost coaches must do what is best for the team. Especially in circumstances that can win or lose a conference championship. At least around here, conference championships are huge, mainly because being single class, our 500 student school has a low chance at success in the Team State series.

    If that was just a regular dual with the only thing on the line was records and not a conference championship then the move would have been fine. Winning a conference title affects more kids than one kid going to state. Everyone on the team gets a patch that signifies they were on the conference championship team. Only one kid gets a patch for going to state.

    We have been known to bump our line-up around to maximize our potential to win a dual meet. The kids know from the get-go that we may do it and they understand that for the team they might be bumped up or even out of the line-up. Pretty much during the regular season we are about team, but once we hit the conference tournament(individual) its all about the individuals.
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  7. #25
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    I hear you, future SIL, but these were my thoughts:

    1. If we bumped our kid away, there still was no guarantee that we'd win the dual, it was just much more likely.

    2. Our kid might very well have won, pretty much icing the dual.

    3. Our kid wanted to wrestle the other kid and had earned the right to do it.

    4. Everyone in the building, including our team, was anticipating this match-up. To bump our guy up, while the best strategy to win the dual, would have been a big let down. I've been to many dual meets where both teams have good guys at several weight classes and the match-ups never happen. Everyone bumps people away and the studs get forfeits or wrestle jv's. Someone like yourself who is concerned with fan appeal and the future of the sport must appreciate this.

    By the way, even after we lost the meet, none of our kids questioned the move.
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  8. #26

    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Considering #1 and #3 it wasn't a bad decision, just one you can go back and debate forever with no one ever winning the argument.

    Many things would have to be considered such as who had to send their wrestler out first and how much of a lock is winning if you bump up. If your team had to send a wrestler out first they could have bumped their good kid up to wrestle him just at the higher weight.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  9. #27
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Team vs individual philosiphy

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Considering #1 and #3 it wasn't a bad decision, just one you can go back and debate forever with no one ever winning the argument.

    Many things would have to be considered such as who had to send their wrestler out first and how much of a lock is winning if you bump up. If your team had to send a wrestler out first they could have bumped their good kid up to wrestle him just at the higher weight.
    They had to send their kid out first, and if we bumped away, it would have been very likely that we would win the dual (and in hindsight, we would have won). If winning the dual and the league championship was the only consideration, the wise move would have been to bump our kid up.
    Last edited by Spider; 08-12-2008 at 12:14 PM.
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