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Thread: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

  1. #10

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    Again in Minnesota the empty weights have been mostly at the 215 to heavyweights.
    It's interesting that you say this. On my son's school the lighter weights had wrestle offs every week, but we only had 3 wrestlers for the three highest weights. One boy weighed only around 170 and wound up wrestling at 215 because we did not have a true 215. We also had lots of forfeits at that weight class because many teams did not have 215 or heavyweights. Plus WE had to forfeit a few matches at those weights because our heavier wrestlers were football players who were still playing in playoff games when wrestling season began.

  2. #11

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post

    Not when a school like Bellmont in Indiana can't even fill the weight. Bellmont is one of the top 5 best schools in the state year in, year out and didn't have one this past year and had to suck a kid down two years ago to make the weight. They have a very strong feeder program and great tradition.


    Still a recruiting issue. What effort was made to make sure all weights are covered? Again in Minnesota the empty weights have been mostly at the 215 to heavyweights.
    Bellmont would be very comparable to Apple Valley in Minnesota. Now since AV can have middle school athletes on the team, it makes a huge difference. I'm sure there would be less forfeits if all states would allow middle schoolers to be on varsity teams.

    How can it be a recruiting problem when over 20% of the state forfeits a weight class? Here is the breakdown of forfeits in Indiana at the sectional level. Tell me something isn't wrong at the bottom of the bracket.

    http://www.garrettwrestling.com/brac...trubution.html
    The first percentage is the percent of all the forfeits in all weight classes.
    The second one is for just the schools that were counted, which is 244 out of about 308.
    The third one is the percentage of all the schools if there were no other forfeits at that weight in the remaining sectionals I did not get information on.


    Minnesota allows 7th and 8th graders to be are Varsity teams in all high school sports not just wrestling.

    That does not alter the fact that a large number of kids are of a smaller size and eliminating a sport opportunity for those smaller kids makes no sense.
    How many 7th and 8th graders are play varsity football, basketball or baseball compared to wrestling? How many 7th and 8th graders are varsity wrestlers at weight classes 125lbs and bigger?

    I would venture to guess the answer to those questions are VERY, VERY, VERY few.

    My guess as to why the upper weights in Minnesota suffer is that those upper weights see the smaller, less athletic kids lettering as 7th and 8th graders and say screw the sport. Why would they want to ride the pine or wrestle at the middle school level when they see their classmates as varsity wrestlers just because of their size? The bigger kids are the ones that suffer since they won't see the varsity line-up until maybe as a sophomore or later. I also would venture to guess that you just think there are more forfeits at the upper weights than there really are.

    I personally don't think that middle schoolers should be on the varsity teams, but that is another subject. I would be curious to know how many varsity starters at 103 this year in Minnesota were freshmen and not 7th or 8th graders.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  3. #12

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    I do not understand why it is considered undesirable for freshmen to be allowed to compete at the varsity level. To me, this is not a reason to eliminate a weight class. Aren't freshmen high school students? Please explain why freshman should not be allowed to participate. I really don't get it.
    First off, thanks for the clarification on the 7th and 8th grade eligibility. I knew I was close .

    Its not undesirable when you have wrestlers like David Taylor or the Stiebers at those weights, but the reality is 99% of wrestlers are like those ones.

    Not many freshman get varsity action in other sports. I can name probably two instances at my school where a freshman played varsity football the past 15 years. How many can I name in wrestling? Way too many! Its not that we didn't have some athletes that were deserving of spots as freshman, but there were way too many that got the spot because of their size and not their athletic ability. Just this year we have an incoming freshman that is pretty good. He lost one match the past two years and he weighs around 130lbs. He will have to beat out a returning varsity wrestler most likely to be varsity this year. While at the same time, he will see one of his classmates who might have won one match the past two years be varsity because he is 100lbs. Situations like that(while rare for our school) hurt the kids and the sport.

    The better wrestlers are going to be the ones that are older and have more experience, plain and simple. Would you rather watch two experienced wrestlers battle it out or two inexperienced wrestlers go at it? Personally, I like to see experienced athletes go at it.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  4. #13
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Bellmont would be very comparable to Apple Valley in Minnesota. Now since AV can have middle school athletes on the team, it makes a huge difference. I'm sure there would be less forfeits if all states would allow middle schoolers to be on varsity teams.

    AV is not a average Minnesota school. I agree if other states allowed 7th and 8th graders they would certainly more easily fill those lower weights. However, You still cannot argue the fact that there are plenty of kids at the high school age to fill those smaller weights. Very few of my son's varsity matches were against a kid that was not in high school, I would guess less then 5-10%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    How can it be a recruiting problem when over 20% of the state forfeits a weight class? Here is the breakdown of forfeits in Indiana at the sectional level. Tell me something isn't wrong at the bottom of the bracket.

    http://www.garrettwrestling.com/brac...trubution.html
    The first percentage is the percent of all the forfeits in all weight classes.
    The second one is for just the schools that were counted, which is 244 out of about 308.
    The third one is the percentage of all the schools if there were no other forfeits at that weight in the remaining sectionals I did not get information on.

    Here are stats from a report about Minnesota-

    "In the Class 1A Section Tournaments, for example, 41 forfeits were in the
    lower half of the weight classes (39.81%) and 62 forfeits were in the upper half of the weight
    classes (60.19%). In fact, the top four weights – 171, 189, 215 and 285 – were the four weights
    with the most forfeits.
    Cutting the number of classes in lower weights and keeping the upper
    weights unchanged is inconsistent with the data. A detailed analysis of forfeits in Class 1A is
    attached. Class 2A and 3A shows the same trends."

    The full statement can be read at this link-

    http://www.theguillotine.com/highsch...tclassmemo.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    How many 7th and 8th graders are play varsity football, basketball or baseball compared to wrestling? How many 7th and 8th graders are varsity wrestlers at weight classes 125lbs and bigger?

    I would venture to guess the answer to those questions are VERY, VERY, VERY few.

    You are actually helping to make my point. Because of a smaller size most smaller kids cannot compete in other sports period. Why are you against giving a opportunity to participate in sports to the smaller athlete?

    Again, the number of kids in those weight ranges and in those grade levels do not support the argument that there are not enough kids available to fill the weights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    My guess as to why the upper weights in Minnesota suffer is that those upper weights see the smaller, less athletic kids lettering as 7th and 8th graders and say screw the sport. Why would they want to ride the pine or wrestle at the middle school level when they see their classmates as varsity wrestlers just because of their size? The bigger kids are the ones that suffer since they won't see the varsity line-up until maybe as a sophomore or later.

    So what you are saying is because some big wrestler can't make the team we need to cut a smaller weight.

    You also seem to be saying because a larger kid wil get his feelings hurt because he isn't good enough to crack the lineup we should not allow a smaller kid who has wrestled since kindergarden, and has loads of experience and talent be barred from making the team.

    What a bunch of nonsense.

    Give me a dedicated experienced 7th-10th grader over the first year, inexperienced, whining 12th grader who is is crying because he can't make the team any day of the year.

    My point regarding ages and grade levels is- put the best wrestlers on the mat. Period!


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    I also would venture to guess that you just think there are more forfeits at the upper weights than there really are.

    Your guess does not hold true according to stats in Minnesota in the link I gave above.
    Last edited by ccbig; 07-29-2008 at 01:11 PM.
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    ~Paul Wellstone~

  5. #14

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    AV is not a average Minnesota school. I agree if other states allowed 7th and 8th graders they would certainly more easily fill those lower weights. However, You still cannot argue the fact that there are plenty of kids at the high school age to fill those smaller weights. Very few of my son's varsity matches were against a kid that was not in high school, I would guess less then 5-10%.
    There are not plenty of kids that can make 103lbs and still be healthy. We are talking about 15-18 year old individuals that are growing. Kids that normally weigh 110lbs, should not be losing 7lbs to make 103lbs. Over 25% of the schools in Indiana are forfeiting the weight and probably closer to 1/3 of the schools are forfeiting the weight. They just don't do it because of recruiting as you say, there is simply not enough kids to fill the weights. Your assumption that 5-10% of your kid's matches were against high schoolers is just that, a guess, and one of a sample of probably 30, not a very big sample. We had a kid this year at 103lbs, that had 12 wins by forfeit! That is way too many.


    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    Here are stats from a report about Minnesota-

    "In the Class 1A Section Tournaments, for example, 41 forfeits were in the
    lower half of the weight classes (39.81%) and 62 forfeits were in the upper half of the weight
    classes (60.19%). In fact, the top four weights ? 171, 189, 215 and 285 ? were the four weights
    with the most forfeits.
    Cutting the number of classes in lower weights and keeping the upper
    weights unchanged is inconsistent with the data. A detailed analysis of forfeits in Class 1A is
    attached. Class 2A and 3A shows the same trends."

    The full statement can be read at this link-

    http://www.theguillotine.com/highsch...tclassmemo.pdf
    Your stats aren't typical because they allow 7th and 8th graders into the study. As I said earlier, show me where they are adjusted for how most states do things and having 9th-12th graders only. I would venture to guess the most forfeits would be at the lower weights if 7th and 8th graders would not be allowed to wrestle varsity.




    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post

    You are actually helping to make my point. Because of a smaller size most smaller kids cannot compete in other sports period. Why are you against giving a opportunity to participate in sports to the smaller athlete?

    Again, the number of kids in those weight ranges and in those grade levels do not support the argument that there are not enough kids available to fill the weights.
    So we should be a sport where 7th and 8th graders can be varsity? Why don't we just kick off all the upperclassmen so that we have just 7th and 8th graders on the teams then? We want the best wrestlers showcasing our sport at the varsity level, not a bunch of middle schoolers. If you went to a varsity football game and saw a middle school game you'd probably be pretty disappointed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    So what you are saying is because some big wrestler can't make the team we need to cut a smaller weight.
    I am saying, bump the weight classes up to adjust for the fact that humans are getting bigger. In 1969, the 95lb weight class was bumped to 98 and in 1987, the 98lb weight class was bumped to 103. Are you still wanting the 95lb weight class just for those 15 kids in the state that actually weigh less than 95lbs? Or would you like another weight class around 180 for the 1000s of kids that weigh around that weight? I personally would like a weight where we would get more participation from a majority of the older more experienced kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    You also seem to be saying because a larger kid wil get his feelings hurt because he isn't good enough to crack the lineup we should not allow a smaller kid who has wrestled since kindergarden, and has loads of experience and talent be barred from making the team.
    What about the bigger kid that started wrestling as in kindergarten that doesn't get a varsity spot, but the first year wrestler gets a spot because he weighs 100lbs? There are plenty of bigger kids that started wrestling early too.

    The smaller kid isn't barred from the team, he may just have to wait until he is possibly a sophomore or junior to be varsity. And if he can beat the varsity wrestler at the lowest weight class he can be varsity if he is that good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    My point regarding ages and grade levels is- put the best wrestlers on the mat. Period!
    Where are the better wrestlers generally at, the cadet or junior levels? If you were to take the champs from cadets and pit them against the junior champs who would win a majority of the matches?

    My guess is juniors, maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with experience and age of the 17-19year olds compared to the 15-16 year olds.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    Your argument does not hold true according to stats in Minnesota in the link I gave above.
    Your stats are skewed because of the 7th and 8th grade thing, do I have to draw a picture for you to understand?
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  6. #15

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    We are in a world of specialization in sports, which may not be our fault but is our reality. Between specialization and strong attempts to reduce the size of schools, we need to realize that we're in direct competition with other sports. That means we need to take a comparitive look at ourselves in contrast to other sports.

    If you do that, the notion of 14 starters on a varsity is insanely too many. Football, the most popular sport for high school boys, have adjusted their rules in sparsely populated areas to allow for 7 on 7, 9 on 9, etc. If the biggest dog on the block is changing when needed, why is wrestling so resistent to that change?

    I agree that changing weights and upping the minimum may seem to put out the smaller kid, but it actually keeps them on the team and where most freshmen belong; on the JV. Nobody is telling them they can't wrestle, you're just preserving the varsity with older kids in MOST cases. Obviously, there will be exceptions.

    I don't have a magic number for weight classes, but if I had to come up with one I'd like to see college go to 11 and have us do the same. Yes, it's a big change. I say this though, as a coach of nine years that's never had a forfeit in the lineup at the end of a season in any of the teams I've fielded. I can't say that though, for a lot of my counterparts and with as many forfeits as I've seen in the two states I've coached in, I'm more and more convinced each year that we need to change or watch our sport swalow itself.

  7. #16
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    There are not plenty of kids that can make 103lbs and still be healthy. We are talking about 15-18 year old individuals that are growing. Kids that normally weigh 110lbs, should not be losing 7lbs to make 103lbs.

    You are kidding right? I showed you the medical stats saying the truth about average weights of high schoolers. You are letting your bias against smaller athletes and younger athletes cloud your thinking.

    In Minnesota, at the beginning of the wrestling season Minnesota high school wrestlers are weighed and given a body fat analysis test. A Doctor then gives the lowest weight that particular wrestler is allowed to wrestle at. A much better system then your arbitrary views.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Over 25% of the schools in Indiana are forfeiting the weight and probably closer to 1/3 of the schools are forfeiting the weight. They just don't do it because of recruiting as you say, there is simply not enough kids to fill the weights. Your assumption that 5-10% of your kid's matches were against high schoolers is just that, a guess, and one of a sample of probably 30, not a very big sample. We had a kid this year at 103lbs, that had 12 wins by forfeit! That is way too many.

    Your stats aren't typical because they allow 7th and 8th graders into the study. As I said earlier, show me where they are adjusted for how most states do things and having 9th-12th graders only. I would venture to guess the most forfeits would be at the lower weights if 7th and 8th graders would not be allowed to wrestle varsity.

    Not true because the medical stat I listed in the link was talking about high school kid weight averages.

    The whole discussion was originally about rule changes in Minnesota. In Minnesota 7th and 8th graders are allowed.

    None of that says what to do about all the 9th through 12 graders my son wrestled at 103 and yes there was seniors wrestling at 103.

    With a larger immigrant population it is very common to see small athletes at older ages. Are you against immigrants too?


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    So we should be a sport where 7th and 8th graders can be varsity? Why don't we just kick off all the upperclassmen so that we have just 7th and 8th graders on the teams then? We want the best wrestlers showcasing our sport at the varsity level, not a bunch of middle schoolers. If you went to a varsity football game and saw a middle school game you'd probably be pretty disappointed.

    Not what I am asking for and does not make any sense.

    If a 9th grader is the is the better athlete I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to earn a spot?

    If a team could fill a roster with 7th to 10th graders alone and those were the best athletes more power to them IMHO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    I am saying, bump the weight classes up to adjust for the fact that humans are getting bigger. In 1969, the 95lb weight class was bumped to 98 and in 1987, the 98lb weight class was bumped to 103. Are you still wanting the 95lb weight class just for those 15 kids in the state that actually weigh less than 95lbs? Or would you like another weight class around 180 for the 1000s of kids that weigh around that weight? I personally would like a weight where we would get more participation from a majority of the older more experienced kids.
    Again not true when you count in immigrant populations in the US who have not had generations to get larger with a larger calorie diet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    What about the bigger kid that started wrestling as in kindergarten that doesn't get a varsity spot, but the first year wrestler gets a spot because he weighs 100lbs? There are plenty of bigger kids that started wrestling early too.
    I have witnessed the opposite happening much more often in Minnesota. A larger kid who has little or no experience making a team because they were there to fill a weight.

    A better solution is that the promotion of wrestling in all ages and all weights is the right answer for filling all weights that are being left open at all weight ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    The smaller kid isn't barred from the team, he may just have to wait until he is possibly a sophomore or junior to be varsity. And if he can beat the varsity wrestler at the lowest weight class he can be varsity if he is that good.
    Why make him wait if other quality wrestler are out there for him to wrestle at?!!

    Did you not make a team at some point and then watch a smaller wrestler make the team who wasn't the stud you thought you were?

    You have shown no stats to counter my med stats that say there are plenty of kids in the right ages in high school available to join a wrestling team. Face it you got a problem with small wrestlers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Where are the better wrestlers generally at, the cadet or junior levels? If you were to take the champs from cadets and pit them against the junior champs who would win a majority of the matches?

    My guess is juniors, maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with experience and age of the 17-19year olds compared to the 15-16 year olds.
    How many juniors can compete against college age wrestlers? Same 2 year age spread and development. Not many

    The rules in Minnesota don't favor a younger wrestler over a older one. The rules simply allows younger wrestler to compete. That younger wrestler still has to earn his spot. If a upperclassman is the better wrestler then he gets the spot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Your stats are skewed because of the 7th and 8th grade thing, do I have to draw a picture for you to understand?
    The medical stats are not skewed because they talk about ages/weights for high school kids.

    Do you need me to draw that picture for you or can you just look at the link I provided earlier?
    Last edited by ccbig; 07-29-2008 at 03:18 PM.
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  8. #17
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMT View Post
    We are in a world of specialization in sports, which may not be our fault but is our reality. Between specialization and strong attempts to reduce the size of schools, we need to realize that we're in direct competition with other sports. That means we need to take a comparitive look at ourselves in contrast to other sports.

    If you do that, the notion of 14 starters on a varsity is insanely too many. Football, the most popular sport for high school boys, have adjusted their rules in sparsely populated areas to allow for 7 on 7, 9 on 9, etc. If the biggest dog on the block is changing when needed, why is wrestling so resistent to that change?

    I agree that changing weights and upping the minimum may seem to put out the smaller kid, but it actually keeps them on the team and where most freshmen belong; on the JV. Nobody is telling them they can't wrestle, you're just preserving the varsity with older kids in MOST cases. Obviously, there will be exceptions.

    I don't have a magic number for weight classes, but if I had to come up with one I'd like to see college go to 11 and have us do the same. Yes, it's a big change. I say this though, as a coach of nine years that's never had a forfeit in the lineup at the end of a season in any of the teams I've fielded. I can't say that though, for a lot of my counterparts and with as many forfeits as I've seen in the two states I've coached in, I'm more and more convinced each year that we need to change or watch our sport swalow itself.
    I have seen wrestling grow by leaps and bounds in Minnesota the last several years.

    It may be because of the rise in mixed martial arts (MMA/UFC) that has shown to a wider population the skills learned in wrestling.

    It could be the success or the U of M and Augsburg college wrestling teams.

    I still think the right answer starts at the youth level with promoting wrestling as a sport. More kids involved is the answer to empty weights at all levels of competition.

    At older levels (and to a lessor extent younger levels) we as fans and people otherwise involved with wrestling need to be demanding more and better coverage of our sport in the media.

    Involvement & advertising will help wrestling grow. How can the sport grow by having less participation?

    I never hear about having a 6' 5" 300lbs 9th grade kid sit out of football until he is a senior. People would line up to have him start on the varsity team. Why do we have so many people with this desire to limit the smaller wrestler and a opportunity for small athletes?
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

    ~Paul Wellstone~

  9. #18

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    How come this study says the average weight of a 15 year old(average freshman) is 150lbs? The study you refer to is way off. Even in 1966 when people were smaller it says the average weight of a 15 year old is 135lbs! Not even close to the 105-125lbs range you speak of.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/04news/americans.htm

    A 15-year-old boy weighed 135.5 pounds on average in 1966; by 2002 the average weight of a boy that age increased to 150.3 pounds.

    I would tend to agree with what the CDC says rather than your statistics.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

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