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Thread: Tap Out Rule?

  1. #19

    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    I don't understand this because I may be old school . College & Olympic wrestlers that I have watched don't " tap out " . They may ask for time or spin their finger in a circle to indicate an injury time . I don't recall any of them doing this while on their back while being put in a pinning combination . We have rules that prevent dangerous situations or holds to induce such a reaction . We are not allowed to " choke out " anyone so why should a tap out even occur ? In MMA that is the only time you actually see a tap out . Most competent refs will not allow a hold that causes a choke or dangerous situation to a body joint ; if a wrestler taps out while on their back they are trying to avoid a pin . The hold would have been broken if it were illegal that caused the wrestler to be put to their back in the first place . Sorry for the rant but I hate to see a great sport get soft due to a misunderstanding of the difference between the two venues .
    Last edited by Coach Hartz; 01-30-2011 at 02:14 AM.
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  2. #20
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Hartz View Post
    I don't understand this because I may be old school . College & Olympic wrestlers that I have watched don't " tap out " . They may ask for time or spin their finger in a circle to indicate an injury time . I don't recall any of them doing this while on their back while being put in a pinning combination . We have rules that prevent dangerous situations or holds to induce such a reaction . We are not allowed to " choke out " anyone so why should a tap out even occur ? In MMA that is the only time you actually see a tap out . Most competent refs will not allow a hold that causes a choke or dangerous situation to a body joint ; if a wrestler taps out while on their back they are trying to avoid a pin . The hold would have been broken if it were illegal that caused the wrestler to be put to their back in the first place . Sorry for the rant but I hate to see a great sport get soft due to a misunderstanding of the difference between the two venues .
    I agree that this is a problem, but as you know, the primary responsibility of a referee is the safety of the contestants. Therefore, when a wrestler in a pinning situation indicates that he is injured, it is better to err on the side of safety than on the side of fairness to the pinner. The extra "scream rule" point was an effort to make this situation a little fairer to the offensive wrestler. It is incorrect for the referee to call a pin when one hasn't occurred, and it is also incorrect for the referee to make a subjective determination as to whether an injury really exists or is being faked.
    Last edited by Spider; 01-30-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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  3. #21

    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Been hearing a lot about this "tap-out" shit happening nowadays. Kids are thinking that they can use MMA rules to get off of their backs, which is obviously a bunch of crap and it needs to be stopped. In my opinion, a tap should be treated differently that a scream, as a tap is a deliberately thought of and performed action, where a scream (if real) is usually a reaction and is for the most part involuntary. My proposed solution:

    1) Before the match begins, ref informs both wrestlers and their coaches that any tap-out motion performed during the execution of a legal move by their opponent will be interpreted as a request to default. The following rules are explained to all parties:
    2) A tap-out motion is defined as two or more distinct, obvious taps on the mat, opponent, or wrestler's own body.
    3) Upon seeing any action interpreted to be a tap-out, the ref ensures that the move being executed by the tapping wrestler's opponent is legal and clean (as the kid may actually be getting choked out and a pd followed by stoppage of action may be warranted). Ref speaks to the tapping wrestler: "Bottom man, are you tapping out?" The ref continues to monitor the action and watch for a pin if applicable. ACTION IS NOT STOPPED.
    4) If the wrestler continues to tap, the match ends in default. If the tapping wrestler stops, (provided that he/she appears to be responsive and the executed move is legal) the tap is ignored and action is not stopped.
    5) The initial tap serves as a warning, much like a stalling warning. Subsequent taps can either result in penalty points or default of the match.

    The key with this is ensuring that the move causing the tap is clean and legal, and the tapping wrestler is not actually being hurt or choked. Being hurt and being put into disomfort by a hard clean move are two different things and should be treated as such.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Spider, after reading your post before mine, I realize you make the best and most important point about safety. It seems obvious to me that action needs to be stopped when a tap is performed but I think a verbal announcement by the ref that a tap is being observed should first be performed, then action stopped if the tap continues.

  5. #23

    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I agree that this is a problem, but as you know, the primary responsibility of a referee is the safety of the contestants. Therefore, when a wrestler in a pinning situation indicates that he is injured, it is better to err on the side of safety than on the side of fairness to the pinner. The extra "scream rule" point was an effort to make this situation a little fairer to the offensive wrestler. It is incorrect for the referee to call a pin when one hasn't occurred, and it is also incorrect for the referee to make a subjective determination as to whether an injury really exists or is being faked.
    I do agree with your point but my main observation is this . As a wrestler and coach ( since 1974 ) I was never taught ( or will teach ) a tap out . This terminology never existed in this sport ( and actually by rules still doesn't ) until the sport of MMA became popular . By no means am I saying any wrestler's safety should be put in jeopardy ; the wrestler can ask for injury time without having to tap out . I don't feel the offensive wrestler should be penalized for this tap out behavior as it is not fair to allow a wrestler in the offensive position to have to break a legally attained hold . I understand as a referee their position is not to be a doctor or determine if the wrestler is faking an injury . We are on a slippery slope IMO because if the tap out becomes an acceptable behavior it will dramatically change this sport . No one will ever get pinned , more wrestlers will tap out to avoid being pinned and giving the offensive wrestler 1 point to have the hold broken , I believe , hardly seems like a fair trade off . The only way I see it is if the wrestlers that feel the need to use this tap out behavior should then have to pay a penalty for this action more than just a one point penalty . Since the behavior started in MMA then adopt the MMA rule of ending the match as a forfeit .
    " Get off your knees and get on your toes "

  6. #24

    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    I completely agree with Oldfart. And as bad as this may sound, wrestlers today don't mind tapping or screaming. My nephew is a sophomore in HS and I see it at least once every tournament (not him). Wrestling used to be a "man's" sport, but it is turning into a "soccer mom's" sport. I don't see a problem with what Oldfart said, at all. It should start now!!! If HS wrestlers are allowed to tap their way out of a pin it will filter to college and then the sport is dead. I may sound extreme, but I liked the world better when men were men and there was no such thing as men or boys crying.

  7. #25
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Hartz View Post
    I do agree with your point but my main observation is this . As a wrestler and coach ( since 1974 ) I was never taught ( or will teach ) a tap out . This terminology never existed in this sport ( and actually by rules still doesn't ) until the sport of MMA became popular . By no means am I saying any wrestler's safety should be put in jeopardy ; the wrestler can ask for injury time without having to tap out . I don't feel the offensive wrestler should be penalized for this tap out behavior as it is not fair to allow a wrestler in the offensive position to have to break a legally attained hold . I understand as a referee their position is not to be a doctor or determine if the wrestler is faking an injury . We are on a slippery slope IMO because if the tap out becomes an acceptable behavior it will dramatically change this sport . No one will ever get pinned , more wrestlers will tap out to avoid being pinned and giving the offensive wrestler 1 point to have the hold broken , I believe , hardly seems like a fair trade off . The only way I see it is if the wrestlers that feel the need to use this tap out behavior should then have to pay a penalty for this action more than just a one point penalty . Since the behavior started in MMA then adopt the MMA rule of ending the match as a forfeit .
    Coach, I agree completely with everything you said except the last sentence. It is unfair and dangerous to force an honestly injured wrestler to choose between forfeiting the match or continuing to wrestle injured and risking further physical damage. I don't have the answer to this problem, but in my opinion that's not it. Maybe increase the "scream rule" award to two or three points if it occurs after nearfall criteria are met, or maybe make it a forfeit the second time it happens.
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  8. #26
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tap Out Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    I completely agree with Oldfart. And as bad as this may sound, wrestlers today don't mind tapping or screaming. My nephew is a sophomore in HS and I see it at least once every tournament (not him). Wrestling used to be a "man's" sport, but it is turning into a "soccer mom's" sport. I don't see a problem with what Oldfart said, at all. It should start now!!! If HS wrestlers are allowed to tap their way out of a pin it will filter to college and then the sport is dead. I may sound extreme, but I liked the world better when men were men and there was no such thing as men or boys crying.
    "There's no crying in wrestling!"

    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

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