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Thread: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

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    Default NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Andy Hamilton posted this on Facebook this morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    I didn't have time to read the whole thing before I had to leave for work but from what I skimmed I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    [D]on't let lack of knowledge impact your ability to post as if you are knowledgeable.

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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    So dual meet points are added to the points a team earns the "regular" way during the national tournament?

    If so, that's something that was done in Canada a while ago (Canada west conference, anyway). Seems like a good idea IMO.

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    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Haven't dual meet victories always mattered? Has that changed recently? Will teams try harder to win under this system? Will the casual fan with a passing interest in dual meets all of a sudden become more involved because there's more riding on them? Maybe I'm out of touch with current attitudes and maybe I'm just too traditional, but change for the sake of change makes little sense to me, and a major change in a probably useless attempt to engage more fans makes even less.

    Maybe this proposal really is a fairer, more balanced way to determine the national champion team, but as I said in response to the previous discussion of the National Duals, it simply comes down to the definition of "National Champion." In a sport like wrestling, which is essentially an individual sport with team scoring, the format of the championship scoring determines this definition. Do we want to change it after all these years? Do we need to?
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Haven't dual meet victories always mattered? Has that changed recently? Will teams try harder to win under this system? Will the casual fan with a passing interest in dual meets all of a sudden become more involved because there's more riding on them? Maybe I'm out of touch with current attitudes and maybe I'm just too traditional, but change for the sake of change makes little sense to me, and a major change in a probably useless attempt to engage more fans makes even less.

    Maybe this proposal really is a fairer, more balanced way to determine the national champion team, but as I said in response to the previous discussion of the National Duals, it simply comes down to the definition of "National Champion." In a sport like wrestling, which is essentially an individual sport with team scoring, the format of the championship scoring determines this definition. Do we want to change it after all these years? Do we need to?
    Dual meet victoires don't matter much to much DI college fans. How many Iowa fans feel good about last season where they beat Penn State in a dual and then underperforming at nationals?

    I liked the old proposal to give the team trophy to the winner of nationals duals and keep the individual tournament and only crown individual champs. I also felt that tournament scoring was too obscure to follow a team race.
    A close dual meet is exciting and when it comes down to the last match, even when it is heavyeights.

    In order to stay a national sport DI wrestling does need change. The current trend is the it wil be a Big Ten sport with a few other teams.
    I don't know if fiddling with the scoring is the solution, but to say that wrestling does not need to change is shortsighted. I am guessing that the national wrestling execs look at the excitement and attendence at NCAA and want to spread it around throughout the season and the rest of the country.

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    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    Dual meet victoires don't matter much to much DI college fans. How many Iowa fans feel good about last season where they beat Penn State in a dual and then underperforming at nationals?


    I liked the old proposal to give the team trophy to the winner of nationals duals and keep the individual tournament and only crown individual champs. I also felt that tournament scoring was too obscure to follow a team race.
    A close dual meet is exciting and when it comes down to the last match, even when it is heavyeights.

    In order to stay a national sport DI wrestling does need change. The current trend is the it wil be a Big Ten sport with a few other teams.
    I don't know if fiddling with the scoring is the solution, but to say that wrestling does not need to change is shortsighted. I am guessing that the national wrestling execs look at the excitement and attendence at NCAA and want to spread it around throughout the season and the rest of the country.

    Admittedly, I'm not up on the current state of DI college wrestling, but I'll bet the Penn State - Iowa dual was sold out and Iowa fans were pretty excited with the win at the time. If the purpose of the change, as stated in the article, is to give dual meets more significance, I don't think that's a good example. As far as the rest of your post goes, perhaps you're in a better position to judge what's best for college wrestling than i am (no sarcasm, I mean it). Still, I don't like the idea of redefining what "National Champion Team" means just for the sake of fan appeal. The announcers constantly explain the team scoring and importance of each match involving contenders. It's no more complicated than trying to sort out who has to do what to qualify for the playoffs in the last week or two of most professional sports. When the title hasn't been decided prior to the finals, the pivotal matches are very exciting.
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Admittedly, I'm not up on the current state of DI college wrestling, but I'll bet the Penn State - Iowa dual was sold out and Iowa fans were pretty excited with the win at the time. If the purpose of the change, as stated in the article, is to give dual meets more significance, I don't think that's a good example. As far as the rest of your post goes, perhaps you're in a better position to judge what's best for college wrestling than i am (no sarcasm, I mean it). Still, I don't like the idea of redefining what "National Champion Team" means just for the sake of fan appeal. The announcers constantly explain the team scoring and importance of each match involving contenders. It's no more complicated than trying to sort out who has to do what to qualify for the playoffs in the last week or two of most professional sports. When the title hasn't been decided prior to the finals, the pivotal matches are very exciting.
    To be honest i will admit that I am not in a great place to evaluate what is best for DI wrestling. Just like you I am in New England and DI wrestlers has no impact here. Yes the level HS wrestling is not near the top in the US, but numbers-wise there are a lot of HS schools with wrestling teams and there is zero fan base among wrestlers and ex-wrestlers a like. And honsetly attitudes were not that different when I lived in Pennsylvamia. Tons of wrestlers and HS wrestling fans very few college and international fans.

    I feel the potential is there to make our sport more popular and I am open to any reasonable change.

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    NCAA Champ BlueBloodLion's Avatar
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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    To be honest i will admit that I am not in a great place to evaluate what is best for DI wrestling. Just like you I am in New England and DI wrestlers has no impact here. Yes the level HS wrestling is not near the top in the US, but numbers-wise there are a lot of HS schools with wrestling teams and there is zero fan base among wrestlers and ex-wrestlers a like. And honsetly attitudes were not that different when I lived in Pennsylvamia. Tons of wrestlers and HS wrestling fans very few college and international fans..
    ODH, how long has it been since you were in PA? I think things have changed substantially since I moved back (8 years ago), and largely due to the B10 network. PSU obviously draws fans in from about a 100 mile radius. Pitt is drawing pretty well (smaller radius) and then the other schools have small to medium attendance numbers. I understand 10+ years ago that if you didn't live close to a school, it was tough to really be a fan because you nevergot to see them. But now, I think college fan bases are expanding because of TV coverage. B10 network really started it, and now the Fox regional stations are broadcasting, as well as ESPN's alternate channels (ESPN2 a little, ESPNU more and more).

    As much as some of us grumble about not seeing sime high-level dual meets live on B10, we should take a moment and thank the B10 for creating the network and including (an ever increasing amount of) wrestling in their programming. That channel, and the trickle into the others mentioned above, has increased college viewership and fan bases more than anything in the last 25+ years IMO.

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    Default Re: NCAA proposal would merge NCAAs and national duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    ... The announcers constantly explain the team scoring and importance of each match involving contenders. It's no more complicated than trying to sort out who has to do what to qualify for the playoffs in the last week or two of most professional sports. When the title hasn't been decided prior to the finals, the pivotal matches are very exciting.
    I gotta to disagree with your arguments:
    Having the announcer have to constantly explain the score and the consequence of certain matches does not have the same drama of the obvious straightforwarding scoring in a dual meet.

    And the few pivotal matches that happen every so often when the team score is still close in the finals just doesn't compare to the possiblility of a close dual meet where every match counts even the mismatches. That has always been one of the beautiful thing about wrestling, even when you are mismatched if you keep it closed or at least don't get pinned you are doing your part for the team.

    I think the wrestling community made it pretty clear last year that they did not want any change to the scoring at Nationals, so it is not going to happen. I just think the possiblities for a team championship won that way couold have added a lot of appeal.

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