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Thread: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

  1. #55
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    The truth is when you have been dominated for two periods and your opponent is better than you in every position there is no good choice for the third period.
    All of us who have wrestled have been in this position: "My best stuff is not working and my backup moves are not working either" What do you do? Try something that you are not very good at? There is some logic in choosing bottom hoping that you could get a quick one, even though there is no evidence that this will work, if there is no indication that you are going to score from any of the other options.

  2. #56
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
    Zapp,

    Why didn't you answer my question: why did everyone who saw the match say that he escaped (rather than let him up)?
    Because it's a technically true statement that doesn't totally encompass what actually happened?

    Others: Did YOU see the match? Where's the video that you speak of?
    Yes, I saw the match. I can't find a video of it for you, but here's the best I can do: 165 lbs match Kyle Dake Cornell vs. Tyler Caldwell Oklahoma State | Wrestling in Madison Square Garden | Nside Wrestling

    And, yes, I call it a HUGE success! You're the one who's eating crow! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    How am I eating crow? Caldwell lost by 3 points and was ridden for over 3 minutes. You keep trying to create these straw man arguments and then claiming victory when you defeat your own straw man. Nobody has been saying it's physically impossible to escape from Dake. You have been saying that everyone else has said that, then calling people idiots for your made up statements that you have arbitrarily attributed to them. Everyone has been saying that both MOlinaro and Caldwell choosing down made a victor far less likely than it already was.
    Jacob Schlottke---Gone too soon, and the world is a little less bright because of it. RIP, brother.

    One, two, Evans is coming for you...

  3. #57

    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    I'm just getting dumber by the minute listening to this. I thought only my own children could make me feel that way.
    "Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until they speak."

  4. #58

    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
    Because it's a technically true statement that doesn't totally encompass what actually happened?



    Yes, I saw the match. I can't find a video of it for you, but here's the best I can do: 165 lbs match Kyle Dake Cornell vs. Tyler Caldwell Oklahoma State | Wrestling in Madison Square Garden | Nside Wrestling



    How am I eating crow? Caldwell lost by 3 points and was ridden for over 3 minutes. You keep trying to create these straw man arguments and then claiming victory when you defeat your own straw man. Nobody has been saying it's physically impossible to escape from Dake. You have been saying that everyone else has said that, then calling people idiots for your made up statements that you have arbitrarily attributed to them. Everyone has been saying that both MOlinaro and Caldwell choosing down made a victor far less likely than it already was.
    So, what was it about that escape at the 40 second mark of that video that wasn't an escape to you? Looks like someone is eating CROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Second, I've called NO ONE an idiot; others on here do that. What was that about strawmen?

    Third, and all that my point ever was: it is NOT a bad decision to take down against Dake, which you claimed was the case after he rides you for a full period. You surely haven't forgotten that claim yet, have you? If so, I'll GLADLY refresh your memory. Caldwell proved that you CAN escape from him, which was ALL that my point has ever been. Down is ALWAYS the best and clearest choice.
    UNI Panthers...Because it's just right.

  5. #59
    NCAA Champ BlueBloodLion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    I actually mean this as a real question, not to stir the pot:
    Zapp says that neutral is Dake's weakest position (nominally). I would have said his weakest is top (again, 'weakest being relative) because I would expect him to give up more escapes than takedowns. I would have originally said this because I can recall about 1 TD against him in the last year or so and I expect he has given up more escapes (intentional or not).
    Maybe a better way to look at it would be scoring differential by position. Is Dake's top points (NF+ride time) minus escapes total greater than his takedowns for minus takedowns against?

    Anyone have thoughts? I can't find season-level stats like these for him

  6. #60

    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    The truth is when you have been dominated for two periods and your opponent is better than you in every position there is no good choice for the third period.
    All of us who have wrestled have been in this position: "My best stuff is not working and my backup moves are not working either" What do you do? Try something that you are not very good at? There is some logic in choosing bottom hoping that you could get a quick one, even though there is no evidence that this will work, if there is no indication that you are going to score from any of the other options.
    All true, I was going to post something similar to this. My additional point would be that if I was wrestling someone who I considered to be dominant both from neutral and from the top then I'd take neutral against them. Getting ridden wears you out much more than sparring from neutral. I'd rather take my chances in space than get ridden like a show pony.

  7. #61
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
    So, what was it about that escape at the 40 second mark of that video that wasn't an escape to you? Looks like someone is eating CROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    He didn't even attempt to return him to the mat, which he has spent all season (and this match) doing with high amplitude suplex-like returns. He let him up. And you know it, which is the saddest part of this exchange.

    Second, I've called NO ONE an idiot; others on here do that. What was that about strawmen?
    Ahh, the semantics portion of the debate. No, you didn't specifically call anyone idiots. Yes, you pretty clearly implied it with your little "pernts" potshots.

    Third, and all that my point ever was: it is NOT a bad decision to take down against Dake, which you claimed was the case after he rides you for a full period. You surely haven't forgotten that claim yet, have you? If so, I'll GLADLY refresh your memory. Caldwell proved that you CAN escape from him, which was ALL that my point has ever been. Down is ALWAYS the best and clearest choice.
    If you're point is you CAN escape from Dake, you're arguing with yourself. Nobody has said that it is physically impossible. We all watched David Taylor do it (and actually do it himself, not get let up) earlier this year. People have been arguing that it was a dumb decision because it did not maximize their chances of upsetting Dake, it minimized it. Both guys were going to need a takedown at some point to win their match. By choosing down, they have now minimized their time in neutral, thus minimizing their chance of getting the TD they need to win the match. I'm not sure if you're aware of this given your staunch support of this decision, but the way you win wrestling matches is by scoring MORE points, not by scoring ONE point.
    Jacob Schlottke---Gone too soon, and the world is a little less bright because of it. RIP, brother.

    One, two, Evans is coming for you...

  8. #62

    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
    He didn't even attempt to return him to the mat, which he has spent all season (and this match) doing with high amplitude suplex-like returns. He let him up. And you know it, which is the saddest part of this exchange.



    Ahh, the semantics portion of the debate. No, you didn't specifically call anyone idiots. Yes, you pretty clearly implied it with your little "pernts" potshots.



    If you're point is you CAN escape from Dake, you're arguing with yourself. Nobody has said that it is physically impossible. We all watched David Taylor do it (and actually do it himself, not get let up) earlier this year. People have been arguing that it was a dumb decision because it did not maximize their chances of upsetting Dake, it minimized it. Both guys were going to need a takedown at some point to win their match. By choosing down, they have now minimized their time in neutral, thus minimizing their chance of getting the TD they need to win the match. I'm not sure if you're aware of this given your staunch support of this decision, but the way you win wrestling matches is by scoring MORE points, not by scoring ONE point.
    Sure looks to me, and everyone else who watched the match, that he got the escape because (1) Caldwell got to this feet and (2) he broke Dake's hands, both being trademark ways to earn an escape. If you can't see that in the video, that's on you, not me.

    No, when you claim that I called someone an idiot, and I then inform you that I have not done that-nor have I deliberately insulted someone-we're not talking about "semantics."

    As for the rest (and the subsequent strategy), I couldn't care less. I'm simply showing that a person can escape from underneath Dake after being ridden for an entire period, which you claimed that Molinaro couldn't do (and still claim with Caldwell, even though he did it).

    Down is ALWAYS best. That's what we were taught, and that's what I would go to my grave doing.
    UNI Panthers...Because it's just right.

  9. #63

    Default Re: Dake wbd Caldwell 4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
    Down is ALWAYS best. That's what we were taught, and that's what I would go to my grave doing.
    The fact that you think there is an absolute right answer just goes to show how little you really know.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

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