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  1. #1
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default sserious coaching question

    I've had guys like Z and Grajales on my teams before and these kids were infuriating to work with !! I'd try to punish them by making them go to the big guys Take down circle and they'd simply take down the big guys ! I've held them out of duals just to marvel at their skill when they came back -as a high school/Jr.high coach I couldn't just kick them off the team !! these guys ALWAYS seem to have an over achieving super nice kid wrestling behind them and I'd root for them to beat the lazy , super talented kids yet the superior athlete always won !!
    Anyone else (I'm sure there are ) have this problem ? How did you handle it ? I mean ,i've had state champions I refused to go out and sit in the corner chair because I was hoping they'd lose.
    You know, I think I would rather be a man than a god . We don't need anyone to believe in us. We just keep going anyhow. It's what we do.

  2. #2

    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    I bought an old van, loaded the lazy good kids into the back, and drove it into a river. Then I started the crappy kids and they got beat up.

    But, I'm not sure how you motivate someone like Grajales. Gable may have that answer but that's why he is Gable. I think the best motivators are good at making kids realize that they are never done getting better and that there is always the next level that they need to improve to (i.e. college, internat'l, Olympics). And somehow the great coaches have something that makes the kids want to win for, and get approval from, them (the coach). There needs to be a deep admiration/respect kind of thing. But regardless of the coach, in the end everyone is going to have to come to their own realizations and want it on their own. I read a good interview with Kerry McCoy where he talks about this; after he got beat up a bit his freshman year he realized what he was doing wasn't good enough and that he needed to ramp it up a few notches.

  3. #3

    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    Quote Originally Posted by oldfart View Post
    I bought an old van, loaded the lazy good kids into the back, and drove it into a river. Then I started the crappy kids and they got beat up.

    But, I'm not sure how you motivate someone like Grajales. Gable may have that answer but that's why he is Gable. I think the best motivators are good at making kids realize that they are never done getting better and that there is always the next level that they need to improve to (i.e. college, internat'l, Olympics). And somehow the great coaches have something that makes the kids want to win for, and get approval from, them (the coach). There needs to be a deep admiration/respect kind of thing. But regardless of the coach, in the end everyone is going to have to come to their own realizations and want it on their own. I read a good interview with Kerry McCoy where he talks about this; after he got beat up a bit his freshman year he realized what he was doing wasn't good enough and that he needed to ramp it up a few notches.
    This is an aside, but I saw the transformation in McCoy from FR to SO year. I watched him look like a slick but "weak" 197 pounder as a FR, and then saw him win the NCAA's as a strong dominating Hwt a year later. Probably the biggest transformation I've seen from one year to the next. "Z" might have done something similar if he hadn't gotten hurt--but at least was an AA at 197.

  4. #4
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    One of the wonderful things about wrestling is that a player has more control over whether he "gets to play" than most other major sports. While some coaches choose their lineups, I think most rely primarily on wrestle-offs. Still, if a kid breaks the rules, he sits, no matter how good he is; and if the team suffers because he didn't wrestle, then that's what makes it a team sport and peer pressure will hopefully do its job.

    I think it's wrong to fail to support your kid when he's wrestling, no matter how much of an a$$...le he is. If he is representing your team, he deserves your support. You may hope he loses, but it is your responsibility to do everything you can to help him win. If he isn't a worthy representative because of unsportsmanlike conduct or whatever, you shouldn't allow him on the mat. I would have no problem pulling a kid from a match in progress and forfeiting if he did something that I thought deserved it (I have never had the opportunity to do this because I have never been a head coach, but there were times I would have if I had the authority). As I have often said, amateur sports are (or should be) a means to an end, not an end in themselves, and we as coaches must be aware of the messages we send by our behavior. Not sitting in your kid's corner, in my opinion, sends the wrong message.

    I guess I really didn't offer any advice as to how to deal with this problem, but I said my piece.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  5. #5

    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    I'm kind of in Spiders camp, I think its about knowing what drives these kids. I know this, alot of the Brandon and Apple Valley kids have the drive beat out of them before they get to college. Think about the tournaments they've gone too even BEFORE college has begun and the success they've had. I think kids kind of fall in to one of four camps. The ones that aren't very good but try really hard. The ones that aren't very good and don't try hard at all, the ones that are good and don't try at all and the ones that are good and try really hard. I think you can build a team with the first and the last because everyone in the room is getting better all the time and are motivated. Sometimes you get some of the others in the room and it can have a negative affect on the room. Good coaches will know how to work with kids in all four of these camps but I would imagine by far the most frustrating are those with the talent and no drive. Conversely I would imagine a coach gets the most reward out of working with kids in the first camp, they don't have alot of talent but they try hard. I'm not throwing Grajales or Z in any of these groups because I don't know their personal situations but I know leaving highschool every one of these kids falls in to one of these categories and I think its up to the coaches to try to sift through them. And when I say "aren't very good but try really hard" I guess I mean they ARE pretty good but they just aren't elite YET or athletically they may never have it to that extent but that they are great wrestling room guys who you need around. Apple Valley was full of all four types. It was sad to see the mega talented who stopped working to get better get the nods over guys who were busting their ass but just couldn't get past the kids in front of them. Occasionally these guys would get some starts and you just KNEW it made their careers.
    "Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until they speak."

  6. #6
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    The kid whom I refused to coach was the asst. Principal's son who was bailed out of jail earlier in the week and was forced upon me ..
    You know, I think I would rather be a man than a god . We don't need anyone to believe in us. We just keep going anyhow. It's what we do.

  7. #7
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    Quote Originally Posted by r.payton@att.net View Post
    The kid whom I refused to coach was the asst. Principal's son who was bailed out of jail earlier in the week and was forced upon me ..
    My comments were in the context of the thread and your original post ("state champions" - plural). It's a different situation if you didn't want the kid on your team and he was forced upon you. Still, it would look bad to people who weren't aware of the situation.

    Edit: I rethought this. Even under these circumstances, I think you have to suck it up and coach the kid. For whatever reason, he's on your team and you're the coach. If you are unable to refuse to accept him on the team because the principal pulled rank and/or your job may be affected, you gotta live with it.
    Last edited by Spider; 12-06-2012 at 12:10 PM.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

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    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    Who is "Z"? Is it Ok State heavy? Has he had other problems besides injuries?

    As far as talented kids who don't work hard and never fulfill their potential, there are truly worse things to be. Not everyone at the middle school / HS level has the drive to become a champ and sometimes unlimited potential is the biggest curse in the world. If they enjoy wrestling at their leel of committment and are not effecting the team's attitude, then I don't think you should have a problem with them.
    Violating team rules should be dealt with equally no matter how talented or untalented the kid is.

    The people you need to coach/encourage are the ones who are working their buts off and getting hammered by the talented and "lazy" kid.

  9. #9

    Default Re: sserious coaching question

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    Who is "Z"? Is it Ok State heavy? Has he had other problems besides injuries?
    No, which is why it seems odd to me for his name to show up here in this thread. He navigated a brutal weight class while cutting an absurd amount of weight his first year in D1 to get on the podium, got hurt early the next year, and then murdered everyone before getting hurt again last year.

    Given what I've seen over the last four years I'd qualify him as just about everything but lazy or lacking drive.
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