Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 3456789 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 54 of 107

Thread: Sanderson does not like National Duals

  1. #46
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Cwilson, I appreciate your point of view, and especially your support of amateur wrestling in a setting where it isn't all that popular. You said that people other than the diehards will sit through a dual meet, but not a tournament. The finals of the NCAA Tournament and the finals of the National Duals would probably take the same amount of time, and thus challenge the attention span of the casual viewer equally. The NCAA Tournament, of course, offers the additional attraction of the individual champions. If both tournaments offer a National Team Champion trophy, won't this confuse the casual fan, who will wonder which tournament crowns the actual National Champion? That's basically my problem with the proposal to elevate the significance of the National Duals, that and the fact that it will reduce the importance of the NCAA's.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  2. #47

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    cwilson--thanks for posting. It's great to have new posters here. You make a number of good points. I want to interact with one part of what you wrote.

    "Let's not vote this up or down based on what kind of team we have right now. That is the one thing I hate about democracy. Too often people vote on what is good for them currently vs what is good for the whole."

    As I posted earlier, I know that Sanderson and others are not objecting to the proposal based on what they think is good for their team. They have a different philosophy of what will help wrestling in general. Among other reasons, Cael sees this as taking away 2 weeks of home dual meets which will hurt the non-elite programs. During those 2 weeks the top teams can schedule lesser programs (which PSU is doing somewhat) to help those programs. Last year they wrestled Utah Valley St and they drew over 5,000 fans which really helped out there. He thinks the current format is not organized enough yet to warrant the change. I know he could make the case better than I. The point is, the issue is NOT about what is better for PSU, Iowa, or other schools. The issue is based on a legitimate difference of opinion of what is best for college wrestling. It's okay for different people to have different opinions on this. That's just normal. But we need to be careful about assuming people's motives in why they are doing what they're doing.

  3. #48

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    But wouldn't that give us two National Champions? Who would be THE National Champion Team, or is it not important to have just one National Champion? Seems to me it would create more problems than it would solve.
    Let me clarify by repeating the last part of my post:

    "We get to find out who the best dual team is, the best individuals, and the best tournament team. In the process we get a chance to grow wrestling. Given - best tournament team doesn't get a shiny trophy... I hope that isn't what this all boils down to. That would be a tremendous shame."

    • The best dual team is decided by the Nat Duals tournament
    • The best individuals by the BIGGEST AND BEST tournament, the NCAA's
    • The best tournament team is the team that performs best at the NCAA's

    There's no confusion - except that the best tournament team at NCAA's won't get a big shiny trophy.

    The NCAA's are not reduced by any measure, much less are they reduced to "meaningless" - we just get more wrestling, and a better chance to not become a footnote in sports history as a sport.
    Last edited by rstrong; 09-16-2012 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #49
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrong View Post
    Let me clarify by repeating the last part of my post:

    "We get to find out who the best dual team is, the best individuals, and the best tournament team. In the process we get a chance to grow wrestling. Given - best tournament team doesn't get a shiny trophy... I hope that isn't what this all boils down to. That would be a tremendous shame."

    • The best dual team is decided by the Nat Duals tournament
    • The best individuals by the BIGGEST AND BEST tournament, the NCAA's
    • The best tournament team is the team that performs best at the NCAA's

    There's no confusion - except that the best tournament team at NCAA's won't get a big shiny trophy.

    The NCAA's are not reduced by any measure, much less are they reduced to "meaningless" - we just get more wrestling, and a better chance to not become a footnote in sports history as a sport.
    Maybe it's a question of semantics. As I said above, this would lead to confusion, especially among the casual or prospective fan, whom the change is directed at attracting, as to which team is actually the National Champion Team. We can still find out who is the best dual meet team without calling them National Champions, and reserve that title for the winners of the NCAA Tournament. I don't believe I said that the proposal would render the NCAA's meaningless, but it would absolutely reduce their significance a great deal.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  5. #50

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    See Post #40

    But the National Champions are, BY DEFINITION, the best tournament team. If we change that definition, then the NCAA tournament team score becomes meaningless
    I really don't see any reason for confusion.

    • The team that wins the Nat Dual Championship is the "National Championship Team" - and gets the BST (big shiny trophy) so nobody is confused.
    • The team that scores the most points at the NCAA Tournament is the best tournament team - as they scored the most points in the biggest and best tournament. No trophy, however.


    The only change is that MUCH more emphasis is placed on the Dual Championship, including the big shiny trophy, which will then create an environment where teams won't blow off Nat Duals tournament as they have been doing. The competition at individual duals will become more important and more interesting. Likewise, the "Sure we lost that dual, but we didn't start our best guys and nothing really matters until the NCAA's anyway" mentality can start to change. Fans don't want to go to duals that don't matter - that goes for casual and diehard fans alike. That is a serious problem that you don't see in any of the other big sports.

    In the process we gain more exposure for the sport.

    As for reducing the NCAA's significance -- Yes, they no longer hand out the trophy, so it becomes less significant by exactly (1) team trophy. But, seriously, it's not really going to change anything. Penn State won't try less or score any fewer points as a team, and they'll still most likely blow everyone else out of the water (at least next year) and it will be obvious to everyone that they are the best tournament team, because they scored the most points, just like they did last year. No change - except they just won't get a big shiny trophy.

    It's not confusion. It's unwillingness to change. Team trophy moves to the Nat Duals, the wrestilng season becomes more relevant and more interesting, the top teams wrestle each other to decide who the best duals team is, we gain much more - sorely needed - exposure for our sport. In exchange, NCAA's no longer awards team trophy to top scoring team. Seems like a fair trade-off to me. (That is, if we value the sport of wrestling higher than the team that scores highest points at NCAA values a trophy.)
    Last edited by rstrong; 09-17-2012 at 08:11 AM.

  6. #51

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Rstrong--ALL of us value the sport of wrestling and ALL of us want what's best for wrestling. To be honest, none of us knows for sure what WILL be best for wrestling. We all have our opinions. But, we're all arguing from the viewpoint of what is best for wrestling.

  7. #52

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    TomWright:

    I would agree. We all want what's best for wrestling and none of us know for sure. But there seems to be a significant number of the concerned wrestling community that is highly resistent to change - and seems content with status quo rather than taking a chance and making a change. Preserving some of what we have in wrestling has importance, but we have to try to expand on it rather than using that as an argument for no change.

    No change that is made has to be permanent. If things don't work, they can be changed again. But no change = no progress... I think that's something we can all agree on as well.

    I stand by my statement. It is a good and fair plan if we value the sport of wrestling higher than the team that scores the highest points at NCAA values the trophy. The only component that changes in the NCAA tournament is the no-team-trophy. And let's be honest, no wrestler competing in the NCAA's is going to try any less knowing that - the results won't change.
    Last edited by rstrong; 09-17-2012 at 10:57 PM.

  8. #53

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Rstrong--You make good points. Changes do need to be made and status quo isn't going to cut it. Maybe making the National Duals be THE NCAA team championship will help. Maybe it won't. I know that some of the coaches (Cael & co included) are working to see changes made--they just have a different philosophy as to what those changes need to be. It's not a resistance to change; it's more of the idea, "not everything that glitters is gold". But, I'm for whatever helps wrestling. At present I'm not convinced that changing the team championship will be the silver bullet. It might hurt. But I would love to be wrong, if we do indeed go in that direction. But my main point is that I think all (or most) of the coaches take their positions based on what they THINK is for the good of the sport. To attribute negative motivations to them IMO is not warranted.

  9. #54

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrong View Post
    As for reducing the NCAA's significance -- Yes, they no longer hand out the trophy, so it becomes less significant by exactly (1) team trophy.
    The plan is to continue awarding a team trophy at the individual national championships. The only difference is that the team trophy will be awarded by the NWCA instead of the NCAA (the NCAA will still be awarding the individual championshps)
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •