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Thread: Sanderson does not like National Duals

  1. #100

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Spider

    Debate is healthy. We are on completely different sides of this and have zero common ground other than we both like the current structure. I see things as very unstable with a need for a fresh start, and you apparently see things as "not broken". Until we both agree that things need to change for sport to survive, this conversation can go no where. If I didn't think that it was necessary to change for our sport to move forward, I would be with you, as I rather like the structure we have right now and it serves my needs. It just doesn't seem like it has worked to me given the current state of wrestling.

    But, being a forward thinker, you have to continue to fight Title IX as it is a big problem. But you can't put all of your eggs in that basket because fighting the government will take decades.

    Football gets too many scholarships, but it makes so much money, I can't see the NCAA doing whats right in regards to Title IX. They should be reducing the number of football scholarships instead of cutting sports, but we all know that it is going to be hard to attack that cash cow.

    So it comes down to making our sport as popular as possible so people want to see it survive. And if we are going to do that, we need to change the structure to be more fan friendly in my opinion. And that is what the current proposal is all about. Making a fundamental change in our sport to make it more fan friendly and marketable to a larger audience. IMO, a really good approach. But clearly everybody doesn't think so.

    In the coaches vote, it was about 51% to 49%. So we are about 50/50 as a wrestling community right now.

  2. #101
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by cwilson View Post
    Spider. We are on completely different sides of this and have zero common ground other than we both like the current structure. I see things as very unstable with a need for a fresh start, and you apparently see things as "not broken"..
    Read my posts. I said nothing like that at all. I simply said (for the umpteenth and LAST time) that making the National Duals the decider of the National team title probably won't solve anything.
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  3. #102
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Read my posts. I said nothing like that at all. I simply said (for the umpteenth and LAST time) that making the National Duals the decider of the National team title probably won't solve anything.
    Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But we know that the current model is NOT helping either. OUr fanbase is getting older and smaller in numbers.

    And a salient point from the "competition" side, isn't a dual format a better representation of team strength? Last year, Ed Ruth, David Taylor, and Frank Molinaro, by themselves, would have taken a strong 5th in last years NCAA tournament. That's 3 (THREE!) guys. Using my previous argument on other boards, if those three guys were on Sacred Heart and the rest of the team remained, Iowa is still going to blow Sacred Heart out in a dual. That's the point.

    I haven't read the entire thread, so I'll go back and read it, I just wanted to make my point.
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  4. #103
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Zapp, I have said numerous times that if it is decided that a dual meet format is a fairer way to determine the National Championship team, then I have no problem with that; but I don't think we should change just because it might create more fan interest because I don't believe it will. The people who would get excited about the National Duals are the same people who already get excited about the NCAA's.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  5. #104

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    So you are saying that if Iowa were to wrestle Penn State on ESPN for the national title (or two other deserving teams). 90 minutes. Winner takes all. You say it wouldn't be a highly watched event with big hype that had the potential to attract new fans. I have to agree to disagree on that. That would be really cool, and I would pack my Texas living room with non traditional fans to see it happen.

    I watch the national championship in everything, even the things I am not a fan of. But to watch the national tournament in wrestling is not watching a team compete, it is watching individuals, which is great for the die hard fan. Your average fan loves a game. Most games happen in a couple hours. YOu buy your ticket, get some popcorn, and two hours later, you have an outcome. That is the exact opposite of what we do from the time kids are in first grade on. We can make events more appealing. If we make events more appealing, we have a chance to attract new fans. But do we want to.

    Now, I do think this needs to be televised to make it huge. At that time of year, it will be hard for fans with youth and high school wrestlers to make it as there season is in full swing, but if you get it on ESPN, you have something that die hards will watch, and sports fans will watch, because most sports fans love watching competition at its highest level, not just in the sports they love. But you can't ask a lot of the casual fan. Ask them to watch a three day tournament. No. Ask them to tune in for 90 minutes when the stakes are high. Hook - line - and sinker. Ask them to tune in to a wrestling match when the stakes aren't high, it won't be nearly as alluring. It is all how you market it, and we can do a better job of that.

    And even though it is different, to say this wouldn't be a fair way to decide the best team in the nation is a little off in my opinion. The same 4 or 5 teams will still be in contention for it all. But an upset will have more of an affect in a dual format than in a tournament.

    If I was a team that won it every year, I can see why they like the tournament. There season won't pivot on an upset. But the possibility of an upset is what makes fans tune in. Other sports have that. We can have it too.

  6. #105

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Rstrong, I understand your point, but I think I addressed it earlier:





    I would reply, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

    I understand that when you used this phrase, you were talking about the NCAA tournament which I agree isn't broken. It is an awesome event, and we want to keep it. But I would make the claim that the state of college wrestling could use some fixing right now, and if changing the structure of the National tournament can do this, I say bring on the change.

    I also notice you say that if a dual format would be a good way to crown a champion, it could be good for wrestling, but don't do it just for the fans. Philosophically, I agree with this as well.

    But I don't believe that a dual format would be an unfair way to crown a team champion. On the contrary, I think it would be a more fair way to judge the "entire team" instead of a few elite individuals that place top 10 while the majority of their team supports them from the stands. From a pure competition stand point, having 10 guys face 10 guys is the best way to decide the best "team".

  7. #106

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    ... The way to increase the fan base is to create programs at all levels, get parents involved, and friends and family members will follow. ...
    As he's suggested, Spider is correct - he did post his solution to the problem above.

    Apparently wishful thinking is what Spider is clinging to.

    As he and I have agreed - we don't agree. No disrespect to Spider, but his type of "plan" is status quo and is no better than no plan.

    We need to step up and change the current generation of wrestling with a more aggressive plan. We have identified groups that are potential fans, we have identified ways to potentially increase the fanbase, we have identified ways to make the dual season more relevant and significant - and a better product for potential new fans.

    "Big" team trophy changes to Duals, "Smaller" team trophy is now awarded at Individual tournament. In exchange, we get a MUCH more meaningful dual season.

    No change is permanent. As is with everything else, change is ongoing. If we can identify ways to change next year, or the year after, that have a solid basis and we can agree - at least for the most part, noting that nobody will change a dinosaur's mind :-) ... then we need to move ahead.
    Last edited by rstrong; 09-29-2012 at 09:40 PM.

  8. #107

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrong View Post
    As he's suggested, Spider is correct - he did post his solution to the problem above.

    Apparently wishful thinking is what Spider is clinging to.

    As he and I have agreed - we don't agree. No disrespect to Spider, but his type of "plan" is status quo and is no better than no plan.

    We need to step up and change the current generation of wrestling with a more aggressive plan. We have identified groups that are potential fans, we have identified ways to potentially increase the fanbase, we have identified ways to make the dual season more relevant and significant - and a better product for potential new fans.

    "Big" team trophy changes to Duals, "Smaller" team trophy is now awarded at Individual tournament. In exchange, we get a MUCH more meaningful dual season.

    No change is permanent. As is with everything else, change is ongoing. If we can identify ways to change next year, or the year after, that have a solid basis and we can agree - at least for the most part, noting that nobody will change a dinosaur's mind :-) ... then we need to move ahead.
    Dinosaurs are no longer here. They failed to evolve in the presence of their ever changing environment, so they failed to survive. The BIG QUESTION IS, will wrestling learn from the dinosaurs? We must change with the times if we are to survive.

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