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Thread: Sanderson does not like National Duals

  1. #82

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    rstrong. I am not against change. I am however against changing a great event based on speculation that it will make another event great. After last years debacle with Nationals Duals I am hesitant to trust any proposal put together by the NWCA. Especially the way they do business. If they change their ways and do things in complete transparency and the proposal then passes, I will back it and not bitch.
    THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON ON EARTH IS THE HUMAN SOUL ON FIRE

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  2. #83

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueBloodLion View Post
    Or.....

    The best thing that could happen this season is that Jammen and ZZYX get shut out of (useless/derogatory/inflammatory/ridiculous/idiotic) comments about Cael.

    Perhaps I will put rational conversation for all on my christmas list and also make it my Miss America pageant response to the one thing I wish the world could have. I think I have a real shot at making it to the Miss America finals this year, so it is important. If anyone doubts me, I may have to bring back one of my previous profile pictures to prove how well I would do in the bathing suit competition.

    now what is my talent....
    Even fools such as your bi-sexual self have opinions and opinions are not wrong even if you may be.

  3. #84

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Transparency is important in a process like this. It is critical that this is done correctly and builds consensus. I know it can happen. But it may require getting all of the big hitters at the table to draft a plan. Can that happen? Surely there is some common ground that can be used to move a plan forward.

  4. #85

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    I agree transparency is very important. Secrecy isn't the right way to accomplish change, consensus is essential.

    That being said, the authors need to author. And the critics either need to participate as authors or they'll be relegated to being viewers. The role of "critics because they chose to not participate and then try to veto because they didn't participate" needs to be eliminated immediately. Any notion of veto rights by non-participants doesn't hold water. Yes - that means it needs to be transparent and open, and those that choose to not participate lose their vote.

    I hate to keep picking on Spider, but the last post I read:

    More exposure isn't the problem. People look at it, see two sweaty guys rolling around on the mat, and change the channel, probably to a UFC match. The way to increase the fan base is to create programs at all levels, get parents involved, and friends and family members will follow.
    Exposure IS THE PROBLEM. A 4-day tournament, no matter how great it is, or how much we don't want to reduce it's "luster", doesn't make the sport. The rest of the season has to be meaningful and relevant. There are multiple ways to accomplish that - not only one. But we need to come up with one and go forward.

    Last I checked, UFC matches involved two sweaty guys rolling around quite a bit. The rest of the post is what we've been trying to do for quite some time... and it hasn't worked. Would be great if it would have. If we do this right, MMA is our ally, and aspiring stars could do worse than become accomplished wrestlers.

  5. #86
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by rstrong View Post
    I hate to keep picking on Spider, but . . .
    Rstrong, you aren't picking on me at all. We both love wrestling, but have different opinions about what its problems are and how to fix them. I appreciate and respect your input, as I hope you do mine. I think the example I gave earlier of my family dinner is typical. Just like soccer and tennis, wrestling will never be a mainstream American spectator sport. Perhaps more televised events such as a National Championship Dual Tournament will have some positive effects, but are these possibly insignificant benefits worth revamping our National Championship format? I say no.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  6. #87

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Sounds too much like - "We can't be as big as football, so let's just not change what we already like - even if it's only a tiny group of us that like it."

    I agree, wrestling won't get as big or mainstream as football. But we can get bigger ... ideally, big enough that we can safely say that we'll be around as an NCAA sport for 20+ years. All those people who you mentioned who would turn to a UFC fight can potentially be wrestling fans. Maybe they aren't at your family dinner - but MMA is big money, and has a lot of followers. Why not give them something to follow other than a 4-day tournament once a year?

    All season long, I see and hear teams ducking other teams and one-on-one individual matchups being missed to save seedings, etc. I see duals with low attendance, and starters not wrestling. I see teams skipping the team championships. All because the consistent attitude is that the season doesn't really matter - it's all about the NCAA's in March. (And it's in March - directly opposite the basketball tournament!)

    The season has to be relevant, it has to mean something, and there has to be a point other than the whole season being a warmup for NCAA's. Without that, we're asking the potential fans to follow a relatively unimportant dual season and that simply won't happen. (Who are these potential fans? MMA fans, high school wrestling fans who don't yet follow college, D2 or D3 fans who don't yet follow D1, etc.)

    A legit Nat Duals isn't supposed to be an elixir for all things bad - but it's a way to make the dual season relevant. It's a way to get starters to wrestle. It's a way to get everybody involved and sincerely interested in the Nat Duals trophy.

    I have not seen a single plan to make things better other than the status quo. All I hear about is that this won't guarantee anything better. Of course it won't, there are no guarantees. But it's a way to attempt to make things better. If we don't accept status quo... which maybe you do... we don't have a lot of options to choose from.

    If something better is proposed, I'd love to support it and go forward. But all I hear is naysayers saying to put the brakes on.

  7. #88

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    We teach our athletes how to overcome adversity, how to close the gap, and how to win when others see it as impossible. Our sport is so good at approaching competition with a Can Do Attitude, but when it comes to the issue of the slow death of wrestling, as a wrestling community, we don't seem to collectlvely take the same approach as we do when we coach our athletes. We can take control of this if we choose. I refuse to believe that the wresting community is willing to sit on the side of the tracks while the train goes by. It is simply not in our nature.

    We need to get the people together than can make this happen and make it happen for the good of the greatest sport in the world. And when I say "it", I am not necessarily taling about the proposal on the table (although I kind of like it). I am talking about something that is a fresh approach and has a real shot of catering to a new audience while keeping our existing audience.

  8. #89
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    I'm all in favor of more wrestling exposure. What I don't like is changing the way we pick our National Champions because it might attract more fans. If the best teams in the country are competing in a National Dual Meet Tournament, does it need to be THE National Championship tournament in order to attract new fans? Wouldn't the level of competition be enough if in fact this event would accomplish the goals that you say it would? Rstrong, you make good points regarding the relevance of the season and the prevalence of teams and individuals ducking good competition, but these are only of interest to people who already follow wrestling. Joe Sixpack and Johnny Baseball don't understand these intricacies of the sport, they just want to be entertained. Real Pro Wrestling tanked, and it was geared towards the general public.

    I'll say it again: if making the National Duals the tournament that decides the National Championship Team is a fairer system and is good for college wrestling for many of the reasons that Rstrong mentioned, then that's fine. But if it is for the purpose of attracting more fans, then I think it will fail to do this and is a bad reason to change.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  9. #90

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    If the best teams in the country are competing in a National Dual Meet Tournament, does it need to be THE National Championship tournament in order to attract new fans?
    What? How could you possibly offer this as an argument?

    The best teams in the country are NOT competing! PSU wasn't at Nat Duals last year. Iowa was a notorious no-show the year before. I think the answer is clearly YES - it needs to be THE National Championship in order to attract the the teams to compete. Wrestling, as a sport, doesn't have a true team championship when top caliber teams dismiss the tournament as irrelevant. And as a product for the fans we want to attract, it's a hard sell when the teams themselves don't believe in the duals or team championships.

    Rstrong, you make good points regarding the relevance of the season and the prevalence of teams and individuals ducking good competition, but these are only of interest to people who already follow wrestling. Joe Sixpack and Johnny Baseball don't understand these intricacies of the sport
    Our sport shouldn't be about bait-and-switch. Joe Sixpack and Johnny Baseball are going to be upset about why the matchups between guys like DT and Dake at the All-Star Classic don't actually happen. It's about accountability.

    I would agree that the intricacies of why certain wrestlers are held back to protect their seeding, or other ducking techniques, is only interesting to hardcore fans. And, further, that it shouldn't be. The fans we want to expand to should expect a better product. Joe Sixpack and Johnny Baseball shouldn't have to understand intricacies, they should expect to see top-quality (not 2nd tier with JV guys) wrestling each and every week throughout the season.

    We should promise, and deliver, a quality product throughout the season. That is the cornerstone of what will make wrestling viable for the next 20+ years.
    Last edited by rstrong; 09-24-2012 at 11:59 PM.

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