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Thread: Sunderland Update

  1. #28

    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Since every school is unique, and has it's own set of challenges and opportunities, there will not be a perfect analogy. However, tOSU has the similar position of being a Big Ten wrestling program in a large, mostly successful athletic department that was doing, at best, above average. A coaching change changed the program.

  2. #29

    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    RYou:

    Good points. I hadn't even thought that it might have been TS initiated. From what I gather Penn State doesn't seem to "fire" coaches as much find them other postions within the university system.

    My point about Russ Hellickson was that Ohio State was performing MUCH worse before he arrived there. I suppose that, with success comes increased expectations. Again, he labored under Andy Geiger who finally arrived at an athletic department he couldn't drive into the red, though he apparently gave it his best try....
    "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!?

  3. #30
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    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    The point isn't that they found Ryan, it's that AD Gene Smith decided a change was needed in the first place. Then they picked Ryan.

    There were more than a few Hellickson supporters who were very upset and thought TOSU's performance during his tenure was just fine. Very much like your support (in the form of posting Penn St.'s NCAA finishes) of Sunderland on here.

    Others thought those Hellickson supporters were apologists and felt the TOSU record was in fact unacceptable. It was very much like the John Cooper record as the Ohio State football coach. He had national championship talent but couldn't get to the title game (besides not being able to beat Michigan). Yet overall it was a very, very good record. It simply was not up to the standard of what was POSSIBLE.
    In response to my usual revulsion at people "piling on" someone whose shoes they don't fill, and the appearance of which they may not even recognize, I justed wanted to offer evidence that Penn State has performed--3rd place being particularly significant. Whether that performance (along with other considerations--see badcat's posts) is adequate, well, others can decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve
    Given the great grass roots wrestling in PA, best in the nation, why shouldn't Penn St, with it's resources, challenge for the national title consistently?
    That's the same argument ODH made here or on another thread. Yes, you would think Penn St could consistently challenge for the national title, but the fact remains that few schools do. Let me offer a comparison to another sport: why don't the Yankees go to the world series every year? They have the money, the coaches, the players etc. etc.
    Last edited by matclone; 04-01-2009 at 01:59 PM.

  4. #31

    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me the readiness of people to pile on and kick someone when they're down--or when someone else says they're down.

    Bobcat mentioned a salient fact: 3rd place NCAA last year. The sign of a bad program or an "average" coach? Not to me.

    There's also a logical fallacy that keeps surfacing: that because PSU is in a top wrestling state, and they have good facilities and money that there's no reason they can't win the NCAAs except that the coach is not up to snuff. Here's another salient fact: there are only four active coaches (J. Smith, Robinson, Zalesky, Tom Brands) who've won a national title. There are probably reasons other than bad coaching that this list is not longer.

    This year, PSU finished 17th. Minn was 14th, Okla State 16th, and Okla 31st in those hotbeds of wrestling. Woah! Must be some bad coaches out there. Off with their heads!
    Its not a guarantee for success but it certainly shows that the resources are in place to generate success. Only four coaches may have won a title but there are probably only around 20 or so programs that have the resources that penn st. has.

    The other problem is that Penn St has been able to bring in some top recruits but they have failed to develop that talent for a number of reasons.

    I dont think anyone is saying Penn st. needs to have national titles every year but at least be in the running on a somewhat regular basis.

  5. #32
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    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    In response to my usual revulsion at people "piling on" someone whose shoes they don't fill, and the appearance of which they may not even recognize, I justed wanted to offer evidence that Penn State has performed--3rd place being particularly significant. Whether that performance (along with other considerations--see badcat's posts) is adequate, well, others can decide.



    That's the same argument ODH made here or on another thread. Yes, you would think Penn St could consistently challenge for the national title, but the fact remains that few schools do. Let me offer a comparison to another sport: why don't the Yankees go to the world series every year? They have the money, the coaches, the players etc. etc.
    The Yankees are pretty much in the title hunt every year...Penn Sate should be one of the few schools that is in the hunt almost every year. An occasional bad year or rebuilding year where they are out of the top ten in inevitable, but most years they should be close to top five, good years in the top three.

  6. #33

    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Matclone,
    I'm not criticizing your position, which fundamentally implies a wholey different philisophical view of sports, particularly among schools--college and high school. The idea would be that winning isn't as important as the healthy aspects of proper conditioning, effort, training, and competition. Your defense of Sunderland is very much like the defenses of Hellickson that appeared on the local message boards beginning in 2000. Both Hellickson and Cooper are fine human beings also. Certainly were not embarrassments to their institution.

    On a related note we hear stories of wealthy almuni wielding influence in things athletic. While there is no reason to think that is the case in the two situations discussed above, one could consider objecting to that whole state of affairs (alumni influence on college sports) on philisophical grounds.

    Now, I've have managed to make myself feel guilty for having joined the chorus of those who had looked to change blood at TOSU.

    I'll get over it, though, and get back to being a wild-eyed fan.
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    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Well, I'm glad to know I at least had some company in my arguments or philosophy.
    Last edited by matclone; 04-01-2009 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Tonsured

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    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    The Yankees are pretty much in the title hunt every year...Penn Sate should be one of the few schools that is in the hunt almost every year. An occasional bad year or rebuilding year where they are out of the top ten in inevitable, but most years they should be close to top five, good years in the top three.
    Well-said

  9. #36

    Default Re: Sunderland Update

    i agree with you

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