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Thread: Cael: ISU and Penn State

  1. #19

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    One other thing about comparing the "double" of Brands from Va Tech and Sanderson from PSU. There are similarities qualititatively but not so much quantitatively--how's that for some old chemistry terms. Both got some big transfers, but Iowa got a lot more out of that. I don't remember all the guys that transferred to Iowa as sophomore eligibility, but I know they had: Metcalf, Slaton, Borschel (all NCAA champs or finalists) for 3 years, plus I think Erickson or another starter as well. I can't remember if Dennis was in that class or not.

  2. #20

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    Dennis was a JV walk on for Iowa if I recall correctly

    One of the bigger feel-good stories of wrestling in the last few years
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  3. #21

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by LoSt View Post
    I think at this point the double recruiting class phenomanan is a proven fact.

    I remember when Brands went to Iowa he got soooo much flack for robbing the cupboard at Vtech.
    The first year his recruits sat out and Iowa had an ok if not great showing at nationals. The following year Iowa wins its first of three consecutive titles

    Cael goes to PSU, DT redshirts for the first year, then both him and Long step into the lineup the following year. What happens? PSU goes on to win two titles

    I'm not saying this is "unfair" or "wrong" nor am I saying that these coaches couldn't win titles without the benefit of extra recruits. But looking at the evidence, I dont think there is any denying that it was a huge factor in the title runs that both Iowa and PSU have had lately.
    Except there is no evidence supporting the position that there was a double recruiting "class" for PSU that created the PSU titles. Tom Wright laid it out.

    It's really David Taylor, who was only a recruit to ISU who changed his commitment when the coach changed schools. Cael got his brother also, but that was only a family connection that really didn't help PSU much, if at all, and certainly had nothing to do with the championship. You may consider David a "class" but he's still only one wrestler.

    Long was booted from the ISU team and came to State College in the middle of Sanderson's second season, so is an entirely different case, as is Brown.

    So you're left with Taylor. No denying his impact, but, again, he never spent a day at ISU as a student athlete.

    Iowa you are correct about. Brands brought five guys from Va Tech's roster, four of which started for Iowa and two of which won individual championships. And the three years those five wrestled (or could have wrestled) are the three years Brands won a title. None before. None yet since. Or did I miss something?

    Iowa wrestlers complete long journey to the top - College Sports - ESPN

    It's entirely different than the PSU situation. It's five wrestlers or half a team for Brands and Iowa and one wrestler for Sanderson and PSU. Five to one. Entirely different. I have no idea why that's so hard for some to understand.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    Metcalf, Borschel, Slaton, Leclere, Leet. Metcalf, Borschel and Slaton all were AA's for Iowa.

    Leclere wrestled one year 0-2 at NCAA's

    Leet never saw the light of day for Iowa.

    Slaton wrestled one year at Iowa placing 2nd.

    So saying it was a 1/2 a team is far fetched
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  5. #23

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    Five guys at different weight classes isn't half a team?

  6. #24

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    So if you take Taylor's points out of the mix do they still win two titles?
    Fall over Lear (4)
    Fall over Wright (4)
    Fall over Kokesh (4)
    Fall over Abdurakhmo (4)
    TF over Hatchett (1.5)
    1st place (16)
    Total team score PSU 143
    if you just take out their only ISU recruit then PSU takes second to Minnesota by 8 points and is only ahead of Iowa by 2.

    If you look at last year where they won by 14 points, take out either Taylor or Long and they don't win it. Iowa is in the same boat the three years they won. If they lose Metcalf, Borschel (not sure who all came over with Brands) etc. they don't win their three. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult topic. No one is saying that PSU didn't deserve or earn these titles, no one is saying that Cael can't coach (at least I'm not). I'm just saying that they clearly benefited from having what amounts to two recruiting classes, and that when this crop of wrestlers graduates it will be interesting to see if they maintain this level of performance. I think that they return to earth a bit but still remain in the title hunt.
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  7. #25
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    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    I think Wiltz is saying it is 4 since Leets didn't do much of anything. 4 is pretty close to half though. Was there a time that they were all in the lineup?
    Does this really matter?

    Both coaches had some carry-overs. It looks like Brands had a couple more that had staying power.

    Here's what i don't get - people are calling this a "double recruiting class". Here's how the recruiting class was announced that year:
    Taylor and Macchiaroli, who were recruited by Sanderson but hadn't enrolled at ISU.
    Cyler Sanderson who transferred from ISU.
    Ruth who committed to Sunderland, not Sanderson but stayed on.
    Lucas Fedechko
    Tom Reynolds
    Hunter Smith
    James Vollrath

    Looking at that list, the only recruit with staying power that Cael might take credit for is Vollrath. So, I don't see this PSU side of the "double recruiting class".

  8. #26
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    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Snackem View Post
    So if you take Taylor's points out of the mix do they still win two titles?
    Fall over Lear (4)
    Fall over Wright (4)
    Fall over Kokesh (4)
    Fall over Abdurakhmo (4)
    TF over Hatchett (1.5)
    1st place (16)
    Total team score PSU 143
    if you just take out their only ISU recruit then PSU takes second to Minnesota by 8 points and is only ahead of Iowa by 2.

    If you look at last year where they won by 14 points, take out either Taylor or Long and they don't win it. Iowa is in the same boat the three years they won. If they lose Metcalf, Borschel (not sure who all came over with Brands) etc. they don't win their three. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult topic. No one is saying that PSU didn't deserve or earn these titles, no one is saying that Cael can't coach (at least I'm not). I'm just saying that they clearly benefited from having what amounts to two recruiting classes, and that when this crop of wrestlers graduates it will be interesting to see if they maintain this level of performance. I think that they return to earth a bit but still remain in the title hunt.
    PSU probably could have found someone to wrestle at that weight, so I think just subtracting out those points is overstating the value of Taylor (wow, didn't know that could be done!).
    3 likely replacements are
    Nick Fischer - Maybe goes 2-2 or 3-2 scoring 3 to 5 points depending on the opening matchup.
    James Vollrath - He took 3rd at teh southern scuffle last year then wrestled up at 165 for B10s. Finished 7th with a pin. Given a year of work, I'd say he's close to an R12 guy (he knocked off a top 20 guy this year)
    Matt Brown - Oh yeah, him. He is listed as 165/174 and I bet he could make 165 pretty easily. He wrestled like a top 5 guy at 174 this year, and i expect he would have been about the same down a weight. He'd score enough points to keep PSU in the lead.


    But again, I really don't see how there were 2 recruiting classes. Except for one guy, it wasn't that much of a class on the PSU side. Including Taylor, Macchiaroli and Cyler as a transfer, the class only ranked 6th.

  9. #27

    Default Re: Cael: ISU and Penn State

    If there is more than 1 recruiting class then it's two. You can't have 1.1 or 1.2 recruiting classes. I don't think anyone is saying PSU had twice the firepower, they are saying two recruiting classes (more than one). I don't know how you can objectively argue against that. It's irrelevant as to whether Taylor enrolled at ISU, the point is that he enrolled at PSU when Cael was hired. The impact to ISU is irrelevant to this conversation, we're talking about the impact to PSU.

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