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Thread: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

  1. #19

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    This reminds me of the 103 lb. Region 3 pool in NJ in 2003. Mike Grey, Jimmy Conroy and Darrion Caldwell finished 1,2,3 as I recall. It was an insane regional threesome. Within the state, they never lost to anyone outside the trio. iirc. Grey got 4 titles; Caldwell 3; Conroy 1. All 3 participated at the D1 level, with Caldwell capturing a title. In my opinion, the best collection in one weight class in one region in NJ wrestling history - if not USA high school history.

  2. #20

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconWrestlingKY View Post
    This just proves my theory. We say the exact same thing about Iowa. Will a 3rd party please mediate?
    I'm not sure that I can mediate whether overall Iowa or Ok St gets the best recruits over the years. But I have had an observation that I don't know the explication for. Ok St gets a lot more of the top PA recruits than Iowa does (Oliver is only just a recent example). If anyone knows why that is I would be interested to know. I have to admit with Herkey (much as I hate to do so) that Iowa does seem to get a lot out of their recruits. The Brand brothers are a good example of that, but there are many more.

  3. #21

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Tom, I don't think that Iowa recruits in PA very much. They get some here and there but traditionally they get the pick of the litter in our own state so it seems kind of foolish to go elsewhere if they don't need to. I think the strength of Oklahoma's high school wrestling has declined over the years whereas ours is continuing to get better. We certainly do not have the numbers that PA has in overall quantity but the quality is right there at the top end. I have a feeling that with the recent uptick in East coast collegiate wrestling that it will be even harder to steal a kid out of there for both Iowa and Oklahoma State.

    Also, regionally, Iowa is surrounded by strong wrestling states in Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Missouri and even the Dakotas. Oklahoma on the other hand is neighbors to Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas and Missouri. With the exception of Missouri and Kansas those states arent very ripe for high school wrestling so they have had to leave the state to recruit out of necessity more than Iowa has.

    I don't know if any of that holds water but it's my theory.
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  4. #22

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Eisenhauer View Post
    This reminds me of the 103 lb. Region 3 pool in NJ in 2003. Mike Grey, Jimmy Conroy and Darrion Caldwell finished 1,2,3 as I recall. It was an insane regional threesome. Within the state, they never lost to anyone outside the trio. iirc. Grey got 4 titles; Caldwell 3; Conroy 1. All 3 participated at the D1 level, with Caldwell capturing a title. In my opinion, the best collection in one weight class in one region in NJ wrestling history - if not USA high school history.
    I remember NYS in 81 or 82, I forget which, had a 112 class won by Al Palacio (Eventual NC Tarheel, multi AA and D1 Runner up his senior year) that also included Brad Penrith plus a few other eventual D1 guys. That was a meat grinder class.

  5. #23

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by Herkey#1 View Post
    Tom, I don't think that Iowa recruits in PA very much. They get some here and there but traditionally they get the pick of the litter in our own state so it seems kind of foolish to go elsewhere if they don't need to. I think the strength of Oklahoma's high school wrestling has declined over the years whereas ours is continuing to get better. We certainly do not have the numbers that PA has in overall quantity but the quality is right there at the top end. I have a feeling that with the recent uptick in East coast collegiate wrestling that it will be even harder to steal a kid out of there for both Iowa and Oklahoma State.

    Also, regionally, Iowa is surrounded by strong wrestling states in Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Missouri and even the Dakotas. Oklahoma on the other hand is neighbors to Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas and Missouri. With the exception of Missouri and Kansas those states arent very ripe for high school wrestling so they have had to leave the state to recruit out of necessity more than Iowa has.

    I don't know if any of that holds water but it's my theory.
    That makes a lot of sense. I wonder why OK HS wrestling has gone down over the years? It doesn't seem very long ago that they had lots more highly ranked individuals and NCAA placers (of OK HS origin).

  6. #24
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    High school success (not just in wrestling) depends a lot on physical development (some people get "man strength" a lot earlier than others) and the quality of coaching. At the higher levels the playing field evens out a bit, as all athletes have reached physical maturity and have access to top-notch training and instruction.
    I am in total agreement with this. I also think it comes down to how much the individual wants to keep wrestling at a high level. I had heard rumors that David Craig didnt even want to wrestle in college but his dad made him. I never wrestled in college but I can see that it is a different life than high school, some are just done with the commitment.

  7. #25
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    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Not to be difficult, but I think that the major success factor for NCAA championship teams is the program. A strong program repeatedly hires (and pays for) great coaches. Great coaches can take some "off-the-chart" high school wresters and make them great NCAA wresters (Iowa 133, year before last).

    Great programs are created by strong fan support. I know that crediting the fans is a bit self serving, but, as with football; they'd be wrestling on canvass mats in back rooms coached by part-time zealots if it wasn't for fan support. So I'm curious to see how Penn St. does after a couple of down seasons. Do they have the fan support to make it back?

  8. #26

    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by Herkey#1 View Post
    Tom, I don't think that Iowa recruits in PA very much.
    That's not true. Iowa is in this state as much as any other program. In fact last year, Brands and the Iowa team were here to do a camp with the PA wrestlers to get some exposure. From speaking with wrestlers, it comes down to the "I hate Iowa" mindset that is instilled in us from birth. I had a discussion with my youth wrestlers and many of them shrugged their shoulders when I asked them where they wanted to go to college. Those wrestlers who had an idea spoke of Penn State (Shocker), Lehigh, Pitt, and North Carolina (Kolat). When I mentioned Iowa I received dirty looks and boos with thumbs pointing down.

    In regards to OK State, they have a storied tradition and they well respected in our state. It's thought of as an honor to wrestle for a program like theirs.

  9. #27
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    Default Re: Relationship between High School Wrestler's Senior Ranking and NCAA Tournament Place

    Quote Originally Posted by cpeake7 View Post
    Not to be difficult, but I think that the major success factor for NCAA championship teams is the program. A strong program repeatedly hires (and pays for) great coaches. Great coaches can take some "off-the-chart" high school wresters and make them great NCAA wresters (Iowa 133, year before last).

    Great programs are created by strong fan support. I know that crediting the fans is a bit self serving, but, as with football; they'd be wrestling on canvass mats in back rooms coached by part-time zealots if it wasn't for fan support. So I'm curious to see how Penn St. does after a couple of down seasons. Do they have the fan support to make it back?
    Has Penn State started losing? I thought last year was pretty good - not a "down season".

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