Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 9 of 26

Thread: Control

  1. #1

    Default Control

    I was reading through one of the interminable threads on flowrestling that compare folkstyle and freestyle, and it struck me that "control" in wrestling is sort of arbitrary. Holding onto someone's ankles in a seated position, or the tripod position (bottom guy on his hands and feet) is not a scoring control position in freestyle, but it is folkstyle. On the other hand, holding someone on their back may not be considered "control" in a folkstyle match as lons as they are still grabbing onto your limbs. Even a pin is kind of an arbitrary measure of control; MMA has taught us that you can fight a lot more effectively from your back than from your stomach.

    Thoughts? For my money there is no more "controlling" manoever than the lifts and throws found in greco.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Control

    I understand what you are saying and I don't know how to explain it properly to you or others who don't know folkstyle. I will try. Others will probably explain it better, but here's my try. (Beer influenced!)

    The reason a guy in "tripod position"(as you put it) is a scoring position in folkstyle is because this style wants the bottom wrestler to try and get up and not just post his hands and "become heavy". I think folkstyle makes sure a guy is actually in control before they score points and that's why a random high amplitude throw only scores the same as any throw. And why you can score by getting up. If you throw and then hold someone on their back, you are rewarded with near fall points(back points). I've watched a lot of freestyle wrestlers get 3 points for something that didn't seem like control at all. A pin in folkstyle is obvious because you have to hold him there for a second and there are no flash pins like in freestyle.

    As far as MMA, I agree that you can fight from your back. But, wrestlers do better in mma that jiu-jitsu guys because they don't let themselves get on their back. I've never seen Matt Hughes win a fight from his back, or Randy Couture or Dan Henderson.....and those are legends of the sport. The days of winning off your back are almost over. Folkstyle/greco wrestlers control where the fight goes in MMA. If they want it on the ground, it's there, if they want to keep it standing, they will.

    I showed my dad Cael's WTT matches against Herbert. He never could understand why the scores were what they were and why they were stopping in between periods. I think his exact words were "Well this is just bullsh*t!" Ha Ha! He loves a good folkstyle match, God love him!!

    Drunk guy signing off!!
    Last edited by quinn14; 07-03-2011 at 11:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    I showed my dad Cael's WTT matches against Herbert. He never could understand why the scores were what they were and why they were stopping in between periods. I think his exact words were "Well this is just bullsh*t!" Ha Ha! He loves a good folkstyle match, God love him!!
    Your dad and I think alike.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Control

    Similar to what my friend said when he was over watching a few matches at the Team Trials. Especially the push out. Add in the last to score a point wins and you have a recipe for boredom for those not already into the sport.

  5. #5
    World Champ
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,657

    Default Re: Control

    I could tell you point by point what demonstrates control in folkstyle, but I rather say that I just know it when I see it. Your examples depend on context. The one in control is the one who is initiating the action in a controlled way. Its not an accident or just plain lucky (like the infamous "ball-grab"). It is not arbitrary, but it may seem that way to a freestyle fan. Yes, you can fight more effectively from your back than from your stomach in MMA if you are under your opponent. If your opponent is beneath you, you can fight more effectively stomach down (and towards your opponent). I don't know anyone who fights better facing away from their opponent. Do you? The lifts and throws in Greco seem like temporary, not lasting control. An example of lasting control is a sweet double leg takedown (e.g. Burroughs) that leads to a seconds-long turn that delivers back points. That is lasting control. It's not like a dwarf-toss that seems to receive arbitrary points for style. As Quinn's dad says: This is just bullshit.
    Despite your rhetorical gifts, A-spin, I just don't buy it.

  6. #6
    National Finalist FalconWrestlingKY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ft Campbell, KY
    Posts
    944

    Default Re: Control

    The way I always looked at it is that the fundamental difference between freestyle and folkstyle is the concepts of explosiveness versus control. In freestyle they want short moments of pure power hence the 5 point throw. Folkstyle wants a long drawn out battle for control. Now debating exactly what control is would take days and several fist fights.
    "I looked up at the scoreboard and I was like, I can't do math that fast!" - Ed Ruth

  7. #7

    Default Re: Control

    I posted on this site rather than on flowrestling becasue I was hoping we could stay away from "style X is stupid" arguments. Oh well...

    Falcon, what you are saying makes sense. Thank you.

    GF, my point is that control is what we make of it. Any time you are making someone else's body they do not want it to do, you are demonstarting some sort of control over them; be it driving someone out of bounds, throwing them, or holding them down on the mat. Saying the "control" you show in, say, folkstyle riding, is somehow more "controlling" than, say, a lift and throw is a bit arbitrary to me. (I know I'd rather have someone riding on my back them have them pick me right off the ground and throw me on my head.) If you're talking control for a long period of time, you may be onto something...

    Finally, I have to ask... how exactly are you controlling someone's body when you are holding both their ankles and they are sitting on their butts with their arms around you? (I ask this sincerely, not trying to be a smartass.)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I was reading through one of the interminable threads on flowrestling that compare folkstyle and freestyle, and it struck me that "control" in wrestling is sort of arbitrary. Holding onto someone's ankles in a seated position, or the tripod position (bottom guy on his hands and feet) is not a scoring control position in freestyle, but it is folkstyle. On the other hand, holding someone on their back may not be considered "control" in a folkstyle match as lons as they are still grabbing onto your limbs. Even a pin is kind of an arbitrary measure of control; MMA has taught us that you can fight a lot more effectively from your back than from your stomach.

    Thoughts? For my money there is no more "controlling" manoever than the lifts and throws found in greco.
    You bring up some great points, Arm-Spin. I think this is too much of an intellectual conversation for me to contribute in though.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by grapplefan View Post
    I could tell you point by point what demonstrates control in folkstyle, but I rather say that I just know it when I see it. Your examples depend on context. The one in control is the one who is initiating the action in a controlled way. Its not an accident or just plain lucky (like the infamous "ball-grab"). It is not arbitrary, but it may seem that way to a freestyle fan. Yes, you can fight more effectively from your back than from your stomach in MMA if you are under your opponent. If your opponent is beneath you, you can fight more effectively stomach down (and towards your opponent). I don't know anyone who fights better facing away from their opponent. Do you? The lifts and throws in Greco seem like temporary, not lasting control. An example of lasting control is a sweet double leg takedown (e.g. Burroughs) that leads to a seconds-long turn that delivers back points. That is lasting control. It's not like a dwarf-toss that seems to receive arbitrary points for style. As Quinn's dad says: This is just bullshit.
    Despite your rhetorical gifts, A-spin, I just don't buy it.
    What are you even talking about?
    RIP Jacob Schlottke - 1984-2011

    "If Cornell finishes ahead of Iowa with five all americans I'll jump into the Des Moines River after finals." -Herkey#1 8/16/12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •