Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 10 to 18 of 26

Thread: Control

  1. #10

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I posted on this site rather than on flowrestling becasue I was hoping we could stay away from "style X is stupid" arguments. Oh well...

    Falcon, what you are saying makes sense. Thank you.

    GF, my point is that control is what we make of it. Any time you are making someone else's body they do not want it to do, you are demonstarting some sort of control over them; be it driving someone out of bounds, throwing them, or holding them down on the mat. Saying the "control" you show in, say, folkstyle riding, is somehow more "controlling" than, say, a lift and throw is a bit arbitrary to me. (I know I'd rather have someone riding on my back them have them pick me right off the ground and throw me on my head.) If you're talking control for a long period of time, you may be onto something...

    Finally, I have to ask... how exactly are you controlling someone's body when you are holding both their ankles and they are sitting on their butts with their arms around you? (I ask this sincerely, not trying to be a smartass.)
    Arm-spin, I hope you didn't take my first post as saying that freestyle was stupid. My dad doesn't understand it and I didn't until you explained the scoring to me. I don't find it stupid at all. But your question was about control. I probably didn't explain myself very well, although I did warn you that it is hard to explain.

    I think of wrestling as a form of self defense first, sport second. So when I see a guy on his belly just throwing his hands out to the side and not trying to get up, I think that I could punch him into submission if I needed to. I also think that if I were the one who got taken down, I would like to know how to get up. Folkstyle teaches that and awards you when you do. I don't know if their intention was self defense when they made the rules, but that's how I envision it.

    I envision that with judo too, which is why I take tradition judo instead of "sport judo". The differences are between a rolling throw and one that could knock a guy out on the street. I prefer to know how to knock someone out.

    The hanging on ankles thing, IMO, does need to be addressed, yet if the dude on the bottom can't get you off his ankles then I would say you are still in control. Let's face it, dude trying to get out would if he could but he can't so other guy must be in control. Isn't that what control is, getting someone to do what you want them to do or stopping them from doing what they want?

  2. #11

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Arm-spin, I hope you didn't take my first post as saying that freestyle was stupid.
    I'm pretty sure he was referring to whatever in the world grapplefan was rambling on about rather than your post.
    RIP Jacob Schlottke - 1984-2011

    "If Cornell finishes ahead of Iowa with five all americans I'll jump into the Des Moines River after finals." -Herkey#1 8/16/12

  3. #12

    Default Re: Control

    JensenS is right.

    If wrestling is based on self-defense, why is the pin the ultimate victory? If I'm fighting someone I want them flat on their stomachs, not their backs where they can strike back. Maybe we should be "pinning" people's chests instead of their backs (Doesn't ju-jistu award points for this- getting someone's back?)

    Quinn, I agree with your definition of control, but in that case doesn't a rolling throw or even a push out demonstrate control as well? Dude doesn't want to go over his back or out of the circle- but I make him do it.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post

    Quinn, I agree with your definition of control, but in that case doesn't a rolling throw or even a push out demonstrate control as well? Dude doesn't want to go over his back or out of the circle- but I make him do it.
    I would agree about the push out being a form of control. However, I'd say a part of control(and this is just me) would be getting someone in a controlled position and keeping them there. Flipping someone over whos on a leg, and then you end up in the exact same spot with the guy on your leg isn't really "controlling" him. You exposed him, but really nobody gains an advantage on the exposure from a control stand point.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  5. #14
    World Champ
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,657

    Default Re: Control

    I was talking about control in folkstyle, referring to Arm-spin's original post. I wasn't trying to obscure anything. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

  6. #15
    World Champ
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,657

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by JensenS View Post
    I'm pretty sure he was referring to whatever in the world grapplefan was rambling on about rather than your post.
    Quinn's first post was before my "ramble."

  7. #16
    National Finalist FalconWrestlingKY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ft Campbell, KY
    Posts
    944

    Default Re: Control

    Well in Judo which was the martial art of the samuri. One had to hold a pin for 3 seconds, which was the time required for a samurai to pull out a knife and kill you with it. Modern rules are something like 30 seconds because that is how long it would take for a modern combatant to perform some sort of submission. Thinking back to the birth of folkstyle I want to say pinning comes from Greco-Roman, most european styles before Greco focused on submissions not pins.
    "I looked up at the scoreboard and I was like, I can't do math that fast!" - Ed Ruth

  8. #17

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    JensenS is right.

    If wrestling is based on self-defense, why is the pin the ultimate victory? If I'm fighting someone I want them flat on their stomachs, not their backs where they can strike back. Maybe we should be "pinning" people's chests instead of their backs (Doesn't ju-jistu award points for this- getting someone's back?)

    Quinn, I agree with your definition of control, but in that case doesn't a rolling throw or even a push out demonstrate control as well? Dude doesn't want to go over his back or out of the circle- but I make him do it.
    Let me be certain when I say that I don't know if wrestling is based of self-defense. That's just how I envision it and I could be waaay off on that.

    I agree that if I have someone on there stomach that they can't fight back. I thought I said that, but maybe not. So I will say what I thought I did. If someone is laying on their belly and I have their back, I think I could punch them into submission. But that doesn't teach self defense because the bottom guy doesn't know how to get up and get to saftey. And jui-jitsu also awards points for taking the mount (bottom guy on his back). In fact, I think it is supposed to be the most dominant position.

    In folkstyle you have to get up and get away or you will be beaten. (Don't make me bring up Dake vs Molinaro). Self defense should teach you how to protect yourself in every position, not just the top.

    As far as rolling throws go, I think it does demonstrate a level of control, but they are now scoring them ippon (which ends the match) and I know it wouldn't end a fight. They should score it yuko or wazari, but let mat technique go from there like they used too.

    A push out does demonstrate control and I am iffy on that call. I like it because it keeps people circling and wrestling, but they need to step up the stalling in freestyle, IMO. Seems like whenever you score you can just run for the rest of the period and you probably should because the last to score wins the period. I don't understand that rule either. Scoring last doesn't make you a better wrestler, IMO.
    Last edited by quinn14; 07-05-2011 at 07:01 PM.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Control

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconWrestlingKY View Post
    Well in Judo which was the martial art of the samuri. One had to hold a pin for 3 seconds, which was the time required for a samurai to pull out a knife and kill you with it. Modern rules are something like 30 seconds because that is how long it would take for a modern combatant to perform some sort of submission. Thinking back to the birth of folkstyle I want to say pinning comes from Greco-Roman, most european styles before Greco focused on submissions not pins.
    You may be right on the greco/folkstyle pinning stuff, but I question your judo knowledge. Not saying your wrong, but here is what I learned.

    Judo was started by Dr. Jigoro Kano in 1881 or 1882. It was an off shoot of jujutsu. The only real difference was that he took the "killing" aspect out of it. As far as I know, you always had to hold someone down for 30 seconds until the last 10 or so years where they dropped it to 25 secs. The throws were developed by Kano because he was a small guy (110lbs or so) and he needed a self defense without the need for strength. The original idea of throws was for defending yourself from knights in armor, but that was jujutsu. The 30 second (now 25 sec) hold down has been from the beginning of judo. My instructor told me it took 30 seconds to throw someone down, get your knife out, and penetrate the armour to kill them. I could be wrong, but if I am, a dude on here called ODH will know for sure.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •