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Thread: The Undefeateds

  1. #82
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    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    Just removed him.

    Pretty interesting that we enter this NCAA tournament with at least one at nine of the ten weights:

    125: Anthony Robles, James Nicholson
    133: Jordan Oliver
    141: Kellen Russell
    149: Darrion Caldwell
    157: Steve Fittery, Adam Hall, David Taylor
    165: Jordan Burroughs
    174: Jon Reader
    184: Chris Honeycutt
    197: Trevor Brandvold, Clayton Foster
    285: None



  2. #83

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    I want to change my prediction on Russell!!
    After seeing him this weekend, he could very well go undefeated......in fact he will if he wins the whole shooting match. He was very impressive at the BTs.
    125 Robles
    133 Oliver
    141 Russell
    157 Taylor
    165 Burroughs
    The Art of living is more like wrestling than dancing.

  3. #84

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    No faith in Caldwell. He will end on that list. He is a winner.

  4. #85

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    Quote Originally Posted by bwh27 View Post
    I can't rub it in yet, but your prediction is looking less likely every day. I understand there's no point in making a prediction like this that doesn't go out on a limb. I just think it would have made more sense to predict something like there will be only one or two undefeated NCAA champs, which I would disagree with, than there will be zero, which to my knowledge has never happened. Will Robles, Nicholson, Oliver, Grey, Russell, Caldwell, Fittery, Hall, Taylor, Burroughs, Reader, Honeycutt, Foster, Brandvold or Rey lose? Of course, almost all of them will. It's just extremely statistically improbable that it will happen at every single weight especially with weights like 157 where all three favorites are undefeated.
    Just for the hell of it, I'm going to estimate the current probability that there will be an undefeated NCAA champ at each weight class. Because this is unavoidably subjective and because of injuries, I will be more conservative than I actually believe.

    125- If Robles gets the #1 seed then he has about a 40% chance to win it all. If he gets the #2 seed behind the Big Ten champ then let's say he has a 20% chance. I don't think Nicholson has much of a chance. So let's say there's a 70% chance that 125 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ.
    133- Oliver will be undefeated entering NCAAs as the #1 seed as there is no one in the Big 5 to challenge him. I think he's a very heavy favorite to win it all, but let's say he has a 50% chance. I don't think Mike Grey has enough of a shot to factor him in. 50% chance that 133 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 35% it won't happen at the first two weights.
    141- The reality is that Kellen Russell's matches with Alton, Thorn, Kennedy, etc can no longer be considered 50/50 just because they're close when he's winning them every single time. Russell is a master at winning the close ones. Marion will be his biggest threat at Big 10's and NCAAs which is probably a toss-up match. Let's say he has a 40% to win Big 10's and a 40% to win NCAAs. 85% chance that 141 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 30% it won't happen at the first three weights.
    149- Darrion Caldwell is by far the best wrestler at this weight, especially with Kyle Dake not performing nearly as consistently as last season and having some conditioning issues. If we could rely on him to be 80+% healthy by NCAAs then he would have at least a 70% to win the NCAA title with his skills (he's literally better in all three positions than anyone else at the weight). For the sake of being conservative, let's cut that number in half because of injury concerns even though he's been competing since January 4th. 35% chance Caldwell wins, 65% chance 149 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 20% chance it won't happen at the first four weights.
    157- Barring the unexpected return of 2008 form Bubba Jenkins (who hasn't competed since January 8th btw), it's a safe bet that this weight will have an undefeated champ. Maybe Hall, Taylor or Fittery will be upset before the semifinals, but it won't happen to all three. I think it's being very conservative to estimate there's an 80% chance that Fittery, Taylor or Hall will win. 20% chance that 157 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 4% chance it won't happen at the first five weights.
    165- Tyler Caldwell is very tough, Andrew Howe is off-the-charts tough, but Burroughs is the best wrestler in college and has the fortune of competing at 100% health as opposed to Howe. At least a 90% chance that he wins Big 12's after beating Caldwell convincingly last time. Then he'll be the #1 seed at NCAAs so I'd give him a 90% chance to make the finals. If we assume that he faces Howe who is hitting on all cylinders then let's say there's at least a 60% that he wins. That rounds to a 50% chance for Burroughs, which seems way too low for me, but crazy things happen at NCAAs. So, 50% that 165 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 2% chance it won't happen at the first six weights.
    174- It's safe to assume that Reader will make the NCAA semifinals as the undefeated #1 seed, I can't think of anyone who can give him a competitive match but let's say 90% chance b/c of injuries and defensive falls, etc. Conservatively, I would give him at least a 60% chance against Henrich in the semis because he has just looked much better this year. Then, let's give him a 50% chance against whoever comes out of the bottom bracket. That rounds to a 25% chance that Henrich wins, 75% chance that 174 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1.5% chance it won't happen at the first seven weights.
    184- Chris Honeycutt is an excellent wrestler, especially when he competes like he did in 7-2 win over Bosak, and he also has the benefit of no challenging matches until NCAAs. However, 184 is a very deep weight with many wrestlers capable of winning the whole thing. He may be the most likely champ, but I wouldn't give him more than a 25-30% chance. For the sake of being conservative and in case he gets injured, let's say there's a 15 chance that he wins. So, 85% that 184 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1.2% chance it won't happen at the first eight weights.
    197- Clayton Foster has the benefit of no more challenging matches before NCAAs, while Brandvold may have a tough time winning Big 10's against Yohn and Lofthouse. I think that Simaz is the favorite, but Foster has been on a tear recently and has the skills to win it all. They're also both seniors as opposed to Simaz and Kilgore, so could be particularly motivated. Conservatively, there's maybe a 5% chance that Brandvold wins and a 15% chance that Foster wins (depending on seeding of guys like Kilgore). So, 80% chance that 197 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1% chance it won't happen at the first nine weights.
    285- Similarly to Kellen Russell, Zach Rey may win close matches but they can no longer be considered toss-ups. He's vulnerable winning like that, but he's about as good as they come at pulling out the tight ones. This weight does not have someone like Montell Marion who has proven himself to be right there with Rey. I would give him at least a 50% chance to win it all. So, 50% chance that 285 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 0.5% it won't happen at any weight.

    The probability is more like 0.1% or less (obviously we all think that Oliver and Burroughs have a better chance than a coin flip to win), but even while being very conservative I wanted to show how unlikely this is in a given year. We will have multiple undefeated NCAA champs this year, that I can guarantee, and will gladly sig bet on it.
    Stuff like this makes my head spin. I just want to go outside and throw a football around.
    "Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until they speak."

  5. #86

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    Quote Originally Posted by bwh27 View Post
    I can't rub it in yet, but your prediction is looking less likely every day. I understand there's no point in making a prediction like this that doesn't go out on a limb. I just think it would have made more sense to predict something like there will be only one or two undefeated NCAA champs, which I would disagree with, than there will be zero, which to my knowledge has never happened. Will Robles, Nicholson, Oliver, Grey, Russell, Caldwell, Fittery, Hall, Taylor, Burroughs, Reader, Honeycutt, Foster, Brandvold or Rey lose? Of course, almost all of them will. It's just extremely statistically improbable that it will happen at every single weight especially with weights like 157 where all three favorites are undefeated.
    Just for the hell of it, I'm going to estimate the current probability that there will be an undefeated NCAA champ at each weight class. Because this is unavoidably subjective and because of injuries, I will be more conservative than I actually believe.

    125- If Robles gets the #1 seed then he has about a 40% chance to win it all. If he gets the #2 seed behind the Big Ten champ then let's say he has a 20% chance. I don't think Nicholson has much of a chance. So let's say there's a 70% chance that 125 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ.
    133- Oliver will be undefeated entering NCAAs as the #1 seed as there is no one in the Big 5 to challenge him. I think he's a very heavy favorite to win it all, but let's say he has a 50% chance. I don't think Mike Grey has enough of a shot to factor him in. 50% chance that 133 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 35% it won't happen at the first two weights.
    141- The reality is that Kellen Russell's matches with Alton, Thorn, Kennedy, etc can no longer be considered 50/50 just because they're close when he's winning them every single time. Russell is a master at winning the close ones. Marion will be his biggest threat at Big 10's and NCAAs which is probably a toss-up match. Let's say he has a 40% to win Big 10's and a 40% to win NCAAs. 85% chance that 141 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 30% it won't happen at the first three weights.
    149- Darrion Caldwell is by far the best wrestler at this weight, especially with Kyle Dake not performing nearly as consistently as last season and having some conditioning issues. If we could rely on him to be 80+% healthy by NCAAs then he would have at least a 70% to win the NCAA title with his skills (he's literally better in all three positions than anyone else at the weight). For the sake of being conservative, let's cut that number in half because of injury concerns even though he's been competing since January 4th. 35% chance Caldwell wins, 65% chance 149 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 20% chance it won't happen at the first four weights.
    157- Barring the unexpected return of 2008 form Bubba Jenkins (who hasn't competed since January 8th btw), it's a safe bet that this weight will have an undefeated champ. Maybe Hall, Taylor or Fittery will be upset before the semifinals, but it won't happen to all three. I think it's being very conservative to estimate there's an 80% chance that Fittery, Taylor or Hall will win. 20% chance that 157 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 4% chance it won't happen at the first five weights.
    165- Tyler Caldwell is very tough, Andrew Howe is off-the-charts tough, but Burroughs is the best wrestler in college and has the fortune of competing at 100% health as opposed to Howe. At least a 90% chance that he wins Big 12's after beating Caldwell convincingly last time. Then he'll be the #1 seed at NCAAs so I'd give him a 90% chance to make the finals. If we assume that he faces Howe who is hitting on all cylinders then let's say there's at least a 60% that he wins. That rounds to a 50% chance for Burroughs, which seems way too low for me, but crazy things happen at NCAAs. So, 50% that 165 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 2% chance it won't happen at the first six weights.
    174- It's safe to assume that Reader will make the NCAA semifinals as the undefeated #1 seed, I can't think of anyone who can give him a competitive match but let's say 90% chance b/c of injuries and defensive falls, etc. Conservatively, I would give him at least a 60% chance against Henrich in the semis because he has just looked much better this year. Then, let's give him a 50% chance against whoever comes out of the bottom bracket. That rounds to a 25% chance that Henrich wins, 75% chance that 174 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1.5% chance it won't happen at the first seven weights.
    184- Chris Honeycutt is an excellent wrestler, especially when he competes like he did in 7-2 win over Bosak, and he also has the benefit of no challenging matches until NCAAs. However, 184 is a very deep weight with many wrestlers capable of winning the whole thing. He may be the most likely champ, but I wouldn't give him more than a 25-30% chance. For the sake of being conservative and in case he gets injured, let's say there's a 15 chance that he wins. So, 85% that 184 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1.2% chance it won't happen at the first eight weights.
    197- Clayton Foster has the benefit of no more challenging matches before NCAAs, while Brandvold may have a tough time winning Big 10's against Yohn and Lofthouse. I think that Simaz is the favorite, but Foster has been on a tear recently and has the skills to win it all. They're also both seniors as opposed to Simaz and Kilgore, so could be particularly motivated. Conservatively, there's maybe a 5% chance that Brandvold wins and a 15% chance that Foster wins (depending on seeding of guys like Kilgore). So, 80% chance that 197 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 1% chance it won't happen at the first nine weights.
    285- Similarly to Kellen Russell, Zach Rey may win close matches but they can no longer be considered toss-ups. He's vulnerable winning like that, but he's about as good as they come at pulling out the tight ones. This weight does not have someone like Montell Marion who has proven himself to be right there with Rey. I would give him at least a 50% chance to win it all. So, 50% chance that 285 won't have an undefeated NCAA champ, 0.5% it won't happen at any weight.

    The probability is more like 0.1% or less (obviously we all think that Oliver and Burroughs have a better chance than a coin flip to win), but even while being very conservative I wanted to show how unlikely this is in a given year. We will have multiple undefeated NCAA champs this year, that I can guarantee, and will gladly sig bet on it.
    Did you know that 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  6. #87

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    Quote Originally Posted by vaisforlovers View Post
    Did you know that 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

    except mine. They are 100% made up on the spot.
    THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON ON EARTH IS THE HUMAN SOUL ON FIRE

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  7. #88
    Olympic Champ RYou's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    I want to change my prediction on Russell!!
    After seeing him this weekend, he could very well go undefeated......in fact he will if he wins the whole shooting match.

    Ah, the astuteness of the wrestling community..........
    Life's not the breaths you take, the breathing in and out that gets you through the day ain't what it's all about. It's the moments that take your breath away.

  8. #89

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    After seeing Marion, Thorn, Kennedy, and Russell. I think Kennedy can challenge Russell unless Montell gets his act together. Montell looked uninspired with his match with Kennedy, maybe a little deflated after blowing a 5 to 2 advantage with Thorn in the semi's with 40 seconds left.

  9. #90

    Default Re: The Undefeateds

    But thats the beauty of Russell, everyone feels like they have a chance against him and he just keeps winning. Its really uncanny.
    "Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until they speak."

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