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Thread: Folkstyle Rules

  1. #1

    Default Folkstyle Rules

    Instead of clogging up the freestyle rules thread, I thought I'd start my own. I'm not terribly familiar with folkstyle (wrestled in Canada, freestyle and a bit of greco) but there's a few folkstyle scoring conventions that are pretty frustrating to watch. I'll use examples from the 2001 NCAA finals, a pretty awesome set of matches, because I just watched them on flowrestling.

    a) People backing out of bounds to avoid scoring. Even in old-rules freestyle we were warned to stay on bounds or we might get dinged- in the NCAA's people are really blatant about it. (ie 197 lb final- holy frick people).

    b) Escapes... as I mentioned on the other thread, escapes at crucial times mess up the scoring so that the wrestler with the most offensive points doesn't win. Good example is the Snyder/Williams match posted on flowrestling, were Williams starts in the down position. He scores a reversal (the only offensive points of the match), Snyder gets away, and the score is tied. Fair? (this match also demonstrates the out-of-bounds crap).

    c) People rolling onto their backs to prevent scoring. It drives me crazy that you can be on your back, just about pinned, but becasue you're grabbing onto a leg or something- no points. Example is the otherwise awesome Juergens/Thomspon match also on flo. In my mind if you are lying on your back, you should be giving up points. "Stay off your back" was about the first thing we learned.

    Thoughts?

    (Oh, and at least boring freestyle matches can end in 4 minutes, in folkstyle you "get" to watch 2 guys shove each other for 7 minutes )
    Last edited by arm-spin; 10-10-2009 at 12:51 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    I have no problem with any of the things you mentioned.

    A) this sucked back before the NCAA implimented the "toes in bounds rule" (where points can be scored as long as one part of one wrestler is still in the circle) but imo its not that big a deal. If you want to say refs dont call stalling often enough I would tend to agree and thats a very typical complaint. I dont see how penalizing someone when they leave the mat is so much better then giving the wrestlers more room to work in.

    B) In Freestyle someone can win by scoring ZERO points, Offensive OR Defensive, so I dont really get the gripe here...

    Offensive points ARE worth more then defensive ones. An escape is one, while a takedown and reversal are both two. If two escapes arent going to equal a takedown then how many do you need? 3? 4? 5? Should we just not give people points for escaping at all? Well then we get what we have in freestyle, a dude just lieing on his belly until the ref decides to stand the guys up. But we dont have standups in folkstyle.

    C) This gets at the notion of "control" which is a bit finicky of an idea to start with. Sometimes you can be on your back and still be in control of the match (IE you are tilting someone) often you can be on your back with NO one in control. To me, and most other Folkstylers it is USUALLY (not always) clear when someone is putting someone in a nearfall situation, versus someone being in a neutral or dominant position with their back exposed.

    I mean to me, I look at back exposures in freestyle and half the time I have no idea who got points or why they got them. If both guys flip in a circle 4 times why does one guy end up with X number of points while the other guy gets Y? Maybe to someone familiar with freestyle experience its quite clear who should get points where, but to johnny folkstyler like me it can seem very confusing and non-intuitive.

    So I guess its just a difference of perspectives
    Gold is an idiot.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    Love folkstyle would never want us to give it up the funk that some use to avoid takedowns is part of what makes it so great. To me freestyle is boring and international scoring is a total joke.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    Lost,

    We'll have to disagree on #1. Playing the edge drives me crazy. More stall calls might, at you say, be a good solution to the problem.

    On #2: I guess I just intrinsically dislike escape points- or riding- because I'm not used to them, I do understand that it's intrinsic to folkstyle wrestling. I would prefer they stand the wrestlers up from the ground position, but again, that would radically alter folkstyle.

    On #3: I guess "difference of perspective" says it as well as anyone. I've wrestled freestyle my whole life, including under the "new rules" so I don't find them confusing. Just drives me crazy when guys are waaayyy on their backs but not giving up points just because they hang onto an ankle or something (see Paulson/Henning national finals).

    Lionheart, if you think ALL freestyle is boring I suggest you check out the guru's match of the week section on flowrestling, amazing matches there.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    i dont have a a problem with any of the things you mentioned either...but i do have a problem with all the potentially dangerous calls being made, especially when a wrestler puts himself in that position to prevent scoring. i feel that if you call potentially dangerous, or stop the match, there should be points scored for eminent takedown or something, like what would've happened in the aformentioned paulson/henning championships. or maybe just be less liberal with the PD calls to begin with. obviously, this is not a problem with folkstyle, but with officiating. that being said, most officials make pretty good calls, especially with all the funk being attempted, but i think that what gets labeled as PD should be revised/reevaluated.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    I love folkstyle, because I love the control aspect of it. There are no style points. This isn't gymnastics, it's a martial art, and sometimes it ain't pretty. LoSt made all the points that I would make.

    And yeah, some wrestlers have learned to milk the "potentially dangerous" position calls. But I guess I'm willing to put up with some of that to prevent the maneuvers that are really potentially dangerous.

    But even I must admit that fleeing the mat and stalling are under-called sometimes from the neutral position. The "toes in bounds rule" helped a lot. Bigger mats, anyone?
    Last edited by grapplefan; 10-11-2009 at 01:24 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    Where is sgallan? He'll back me up on the out-of-bounds thing, at least

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    Where is sgallan? He'll back me up on the out-of-bounds thing, at least
    I am 100% with you on the push outs. The amount of wrestling that goes on at the edge of the match is bad where the ebst defense is to crawl out of bounds. The action in Freestyle rarely gets stopped with the pushout rule, so a two period match takes only a little more than 4 minutes to watch if you fast forward thorugh the break.
    A boring heavyweight folkstyle match will take way more than 7 minutes to watch.

    I also tend to agree with you on the funk positions. The are a fairly recent development in Folkstyle, I never saw those position when I wrestled, so I might be just a grumpy old guy who feels it is bad technique that would not work for most wrestlers.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Folkstyle Rules

    I also tend to agree with you on the funk positions. The are a fairly recent development in Folkstyle, I never saw those position when I wrestled, so I might be just a grumpy old guy who feels it is bad technique that would not work for most wrestlers.[/quote]

    Matt Gentry told me something similar at Canadian nationals a few years back. Says American wrestlers are working "funky" defences at the expense of traditional defenses, such as sprawling and heavy hips, that also work in freestyle.
    Of course for people who don't are about freestyle sucess, it doesn't matter how a technique transfers over.

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