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Thread: flo on interev

  1. #1

    Default flo on interev

    another great interview from andrew hipps. great to see guys from two different sites getting together for the good of the sport in an interesting way.

    flo brings up some great points. i can't see how what he is doing is possible bad for the sport. way to go intermat.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Dart Shark's Avatar
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    Default Re: flo on interev

    I posted this over at theopenmat. I guess I'll continue to be the most outspoken critic. Rather than speak on why there are conflicts, it's just an open pot shot and veiled motives.

    >> My post <<

    As much as I know some wrestling fans tire of me commenting on issues brought up with Martin/Flo, if anyone knows what's going on better than anyone from an outside entity, it's me. I like Andrew Hipps, consider him a friend and hard worker, but there are some answers that were just open shots (and half-truths) that again can be addressed. Here's in the interest of full disclosure.

    The first question was what was the motivation to start Flowrestling.
    Martin's answer is the same line time and time again. My question is, if wrestling is so important (and track to his brother), why are there floswimming.org, gymnastike.org, purefight.org, sailgroove.org and cyclingdirt.org? Seems to me, if wrestling was such a driving factor, why the other sites? Monetizing fringe sports.

    Doing something no one else has was a response to the second question.
    Wrestling fans on YouTube have put videos online for since YouTube became prevalent. InterMat did video interviews and athlete interviews from events in 2005.

    Third Question:
    Like "The Du" ... I don't know what to make of it, since there was nothing on his site dedicated to saving the Oregon program, just a shot at the NWCA and "not blaming Title IX."

    Fourth Question:
    Martin has critics because he can't follow simple rules and demands he be given everything without question. If Martin says "we really need to work together," then why did he refuse to be a part of the College Wrestling Network portal? You know, the "working together" model with InterMat, Rev, The Wrestling Mall, Takedown Radio, Tech-Fall.com, Wrestling 411, Lighthouse Wrestling, Buckeyewrestling. The answer he presents is this: "Work Together" means "Work with what we want."

    Fifth Question:
    FloNationals: People not doing it right is a direct shot at the NHSCA Nationals, which has its issues, I'll admit, but "not doing it right" in my estimation means NHSCA went with ESPN360 for its finals and dealt with a major sports network for rights. Flo didn't go, so they take the ball and start their own.

    Sixth question:
    No point to argue.

    Seventh question:
    Technique Wave: The NWCA/InterMat has technique videos (Prior to the sale of InterMat). The NWCA still provides them. So the statement "no one else has that" is false. Cary Kolat has that, too.

    So much for the comment about "never accepting advertising" ... when Flo's marketing wing has targeted InterMat and WIN saying their product has a better ROI than those two outlets (prior to NWCA selling InterMat). So much for working together, right?

    Eighth question:
    Russian Nationals. Not going to nitpick on the merits of shooting video from the stands vs. being representative media. Joe and Zeb did an amazing job getting all the footage from the Russian Nationals.

    Ninth question:
    Treated with hostility? This is clearly putting the blame on someone else for his own actions. Pouting and acting like a baby and breaking rules for some reason is USA Wrestling's fault? Treated with hostility? At the World Championships in Baku, Martin showed up virtually unannounced and didn't apply for a credential. Who helped him get a pass? USA Wrestling did. The press folks who coordinate all the media at USA events are there to help journalists. When they don't follow the rules, who is to blame. Both USAW and the NWCA have offered help, but it's not been on Martin's terms. Unsubstantiated pot shot aimed at trying to make himself look like the victim here. There's even more USA has done to help Flo (financially), but Martin won't tell you that.

    Tenth question:
    It's a leadership issue? And if things don't go right with Flocasts, they fall on his shoulders? So in just over three years, all the rules and rifts done because someone doesn't want to follow the rules is someone else's fault (Based on the responses he gave) ... so when he doesn't follow rules, it doesn't fall back on his shoulders? Contradictory statement. Has Martin been an active participant or volunteer in his own state association? What inner workings or knowledge of our US Olympic and National Teams does he have other than hearsay?

    If everyone has to take responsibility, why doesn't he take responsibility for explaining to people that he's been the cause of the rifts because if you don't work with his brash demands immediately, you're not good for the sport.

    Eleventh question:
    I think you have to have the respect to be able to be critical. Showing up, demanding everything, then trashing people isn't going to make the right impact. Guerrilla marketing is one thing, but glossing over why programs need more blood without doing the research ... and putting a contributor's name on it rather than Flo's name on it says "I want to throw rocks, but don't get mad at us."

    I don't disagree with statements regarding coaches being in positions too long and letting the program wither away.

    Twelfth question:
    no response.


    So in a nutshell, Martin talks about taking accountability and responsibility over our sport, yet he's not even doing this with his own site and fans when it comes to telling them what's really going on. Play the victim role, get people mad at the powers-that-be because it's good for his bottom line ($$$).

    Here's another thing that irks me. It's who is taking the credit for all of the great work being done on the site. Joe, Zeb, Cliff and all the individual user videos add so much to the site. When Jim Brown's blog was a "featured" blog on Flo, I thought, great. But Jim has no allegiance to any outlet and when he blogged about things that help wrestling, some of which involved projects I was in, Jim's blog was no longer "featured" ... anyone find that strange? What was Martin's response? Is he going to tell people the truth? Jim was talking about great stories in WIN, 411, InterMat ... and he has been supportive of Flo, but when the blogs started talking about other outlets in their promotion of wrestling -- "executives and staff" thought it wasn't in Flo's best interest. I believe the comment I read was "endorsing too many for-profit entities" or something of the like. Draw your own conclusions.

    What about Joe's work? Who still gets the credit? Well, what if things don't work out? What's going to happen? The same thing that happened to Floswimming when they axed their swimming guy?

    Don't know what I'm talking about?
    http://www.floswimming.org/videos/sp...moving-forward

    What if something like that happens to Joe? Then what? Garrett was the lifeblood of floswimming, just like Joe is to Flowrestling.

    Again, I'm on Flo constantly, I think it's a great site, but I think the responses in this story are again not being open and honest with the wrestling community about motives. I'm still stuck on the "Work together" thing ... WHY would someone not want to be part of the CWN if the mission is to work together?

    The only way to play with Martin in wrestling's sandbox is to play by his rules. Maybe the wrestling community will someday understand this.

    It's a great site, but the responses on the InterMat interview contradict the actions of its glorious founder and does the wrestling community a great disservice by perpetuating the falsehoods of being treated "with hostility." 90 percent of wrestling fans haven't seen his temper tantrums first-hand.

    We're told by Martin we need to think and act differently for our sport to survive, right?

    I don't think ethics and integrity and honesty need to be treated differently.

  3. #3

    Default Re: flo on interev

    Since Jason mentioned the "de-listing" of my blog on Flowrestling, I feel the need to make a minor correction in Jason's description and to tell more about the incident.

    In the early days of flo, Martin invited me to post my blog there. As Jason said, it was listed as a "featured blog'. Then in late March 2008 the blog was no longer "featured" After a couple of weeks I sent a message to Martin and asked him for an explanation. Here's his response, "Hey Jim, I think my programmers dropped you cause they said you were promoting charitites and things on their that were asking for money in one way or another." This was followed by a rambling - almost incomprehensible - explanation that claimed they couldn't verify the integrity of all of the groups I was supporting - groups like Save Oregon Wrestling, Iowa Public Television for their College Wrestling broadcasts and Beat the Streets. What the heck was their to verify? How can you claim to be a friend of wrestling and not support groups like these? Then this, later in his message:

    "In the new platform popular blogs will rise to the top...so we don't have to judge the content to highlight some over others....the community will decide."

    I replied, "It's hard to rise to the top if you're not listed."

    Martin then sent, "Tell me about it. That's why we're going to have to switch it. Right now it isn't right... give me a couple days on this thing." That was April 11, 2008 and I never heard from Martin Floreani again.

    Jim Brown

    Cedar Rapids, IA
    2011 NAIA Wrestling Championships, March 3, 4 & 5, Cedar Rapids, IA. I'll see you there.

  4. #4

    Default Re: flo on interev

    dart shark, i had a tough time staying interested in your critique of flo. i don't get it if it has anything to do with why i thought the article was interesting or if i shouldn't find it interesting.

    i think they brought up good points because i get to watch more wrestling via flo and read more interesting stuff about wrestling because of interev.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Dart Shark's Avatar
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    Default Re: flo on interev

    I'm just pointing out some fallacies in the "good points" the subject of the story wanted to bring up. I'm just keeping things honest.
    Last edited by Dart Shark; 08-09-2009 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: flo on interev

    His complete product is unparalleled. You seem to be privy to a lot more details, Jason. However, I think the positive outweighs the negative with Martin. He may not be exactly what he presents as, but it doesn't really bother me at all.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Dart Shark's Avatar
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    Default Re: flo on interev

    The product is fantastic, I'm not devaluing it. Just be honest and stop trying to play the victim, when it's obviously not the case.

    And as far as the good outweighing the bad ... ask what the swimming fans think.
    Last edited by Dart Shark; 08-09-2009 at 09:39 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: flo on interev

    Quote Originally Posted by Dart Shark View Post
    The product is fantastic, I'm not devaluing it. Just be honest and stop trying to play the victim, when it's obviously not the case.

    And as far as the good outweighing the bad ... ask what the swimming fans think.
    Yeah, i don't know what happened there? I tried to read on there(floswimming), but couldn't make heads or tails of what happened.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

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